Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[tsammyc]

I would not deny myself the benefits of a subwoofer and room correction for a SINAD increase I probably won't notice. You say you are coming from a 20 year old Yamaha AVR, so I'm not sure you've experienced good room correction properly set up.

Agreed for home theater usage. My 20 year old Yamaha's YPAO was admittedly primitive, but I did carefully manually correct the subwoofer output with a real time analyzer (TrueRTA) about 17 years ago, a professional microphone and an ancient equalizer called a Behringer Bass Feedback Destroyer, implementing a house curve of my preference. I also have a more modern Yamaha receiver in another room. So, I'm not ignorant of the benefits of good room correction.

I'm quite excited about the new RoomEQ of the new receivers affecting the higher frequencies and there is no question that I would use RoomEQ for home theater sound. The issue is my listening of 2 channel music as I already have a bit perfect streamer and a 115+ SINAD DAC. Since the 3800 has a low performing DAC, I will likely be using the streamer to connect via analog to the 3800's pre-amp/amp section and some here have suggested that I will get around a 96 SINAD that way, which is good enough for me. I will be pleasantly surprised if crispness of the 3800's sound is acceptable after I turn on RoomEQ, but remain doubtful.

 

[tsammyc]

We all know it is worse than the 3700AKM based on measurements but likely won't sound worse for most people. There is no published measurements for the 3700/4700 PCM to compare with the 3800.

I'm pretty sensitive to degraded a cappella vocals, so I might be among the few. My path will be WIIM Mini->optical->Topping D90->analog->X3800H->KEF speakers. Would the X3800H be worse than having a X3700H in the chain? I'm not sure how to interpret all of Amir's measurements especially how much SINAD would be degraded by the preamp input to output volume control.

 

[tsammyc]

That twenty year old YPAO room EQ is far less advanced than Audyssey XT32 or Dirac Live. That said, not all like the effects of room EQ, but some years ago Denon made a $20 app that could be used to set the upper frequency of correction for Audyssey, so one could apply roomEq only in the bass region where it's needed the most.

The issue from my understanding is that once I enable Audyssey, the X3800H will take my analog 2 channel input and redigitize it, process and then output it thought is lower quality DAC

 

[tsammyc]

I would have agreed with you in the past, when I used Audyssey XT32 - now with Dirac Live, I find that not to be the case - the setup sounds better with Dirac, than in Pure Direct.

I did (during the change over) compare the old AVR to the new one - and in pure direct, they sounded identical (to my ears)... but the old one on 2 channel stereo music, was consistently better in pure direct than in Audyssey XT32, the new AVR is consistently better on 2ch music with Dirac active than in Pure direct.

There are obviously numerous potential caveats - but for myself, I have found that Dirac has put forward a very very convincing case for its benefits, regardless of the material being listened to. - The key Caveat, is that I was using Audyssey on a 2013 vintage AVR - there was no option to turn off the MRC default - and that 2kHz BBC "dip" that is built in (supposed to compensate for common issues in crossovers between midrange and tweeter) - really impacts on the midrange - BADLY. - Current D&M AVR's with the associated apps, give you the option to disable MRC... and my experience MIGHT have been different.

In your case - assuming a D&M AVR, have you turned off MRC before comparing the EQ vs the nonEQ for 2 ch music?
Also - have you tried to use the EQ, without any target curve... (that requires matching the target curve to the measured curve as closely as possible, so processing is then limited to impulse/phase and frequency EQ is minimised) - that would allow a comparison of the processing without altering the voicing of the system... this is essential, as both Audyssey and Dirac do both things, processing and voicing - and if you want to know the efficacy of the processing, you need to take the voicing part of the equation off the table!

Thanks for a most interesting view. Assuming I don't return the X3800H when I get it, I will certainly try turning off MRC and any curve. My issue in the past has been listening to a cappella voices and jazz strings, where I notice the most difference in crispness. If I keep the X3800H, perhaps there will be a bump up in quality after installing Dirac Live next year, but I have some doubts given the lower quality DAC. Perhaps the RZ50's limited supply outside the US is due to chip shortage so it will be interesting to see what is in the RZ70.

 

[peng]

How did you test? Did you run MSO and check multiple positions? Did you compare the results between minidsp with optimal delay vs SubEQ HT delay? What did you get?

I don't have 2 subs, but for my 1 sub I needed to adjust the delay significantly to improve integration with the mains.

Sorry, that's more than 5 years ago and at the time I had never heard of MSO. I can't remember the details other than I played around with it a lot, and following instructions available on the internet as well as minidsp's application notes. Tried it by itself, as well as using it together with XT32 SubEQHT. In the end, I thought there was too much work doing those manual adjustments to gain may be marginally better results in certain ways. I finally got fed up with the extra interconnects laying around; and realized that since Audyssey got me very satisfactory results integrating with not only the mains but also the surround speakers, there was no point adding further complexity to my setup. I still have the mini in its box and I hope to find time to play with MSO eventually, not that I would use it for the same reasons but am curious to see what MSO can bring to the table. I may also upgrade it for use with DL when DLBC becomes available. I don't doubt in other setups, it may be a very useful device to integrate subs/mains better than simply running Audyssey but I also believe that in many cased, like in mine, XT32 SubEQ HT plus some minor tweak with the App/Ratbuddyssey or the MultEQ X will suffice.

 

[peng]

This is not my first Denon, I know all the tweaks needed due to the "thin" curve but there is more to it with the 3800h. In any case, I sent it back. I prefer the RSZ50 I was testing side by side.

That's as expected, just read the numerous reviews on the internet, including even those on Amazon and we can see the different views. There are always going to be people who prefer the RZ50, and others prefer the X3800H. Preference is just preference, whether it is audio or video, there are always two camps, one prefer to just go by what they perceive, others go by specs and measurements, and then there is another camp where people consider both. The RZ50 does seem to do well for both camps, but having seen the test results, if I had one I would just use it as prepro and say no thanks to the internal amps. I would be comfortable using the Denon's internal amps for some of my surround speakers (but I don't have to).

 

[delta76]

That's as expected, just read the numerous reviews on the internet, including even those on Amazon and we can see the different views. There are always going to be people who prefer the RZ50, and others prefer the X3800H. Preference is just preference, whether it is audio or video, there are always two camps, one prefer to just go by what they perceive, others go by specs and measurements, and then there is another camp where people consider both. The RZ50 does seem to do well for both camps, but having seen the test results, if I had one I would just use it as prepro and say no thanks to the internal amps. I would be comfortable using the Denon's internal amps for some of my surround speakers (but I don't have to).

You can't trust people - and I meant average Joe - for reviews of audio equipment. For most of them, price, look, features, ease of use take much more effect than the audio quality alone.
For 90% if not more people, x3800h and RZ50 will sound the same, but they still hear the difference

 

[tjcinnamon]

No DLBC but if one is comfortable adding a minidsp to combine subs with a good response either manually or with something like MSO, then the RZ50 would be a great option. But the RZ50 as is, I would consider it too incomplete. Others may of course disagree (which is fine of course). The door remains open if Onkyo will walk through it.... and release their higher end units and beat Denon/Marantz both in total price with Dirac/DLBC. It would be great for consumers if they did.
Edit: And I agree, never buy a unit on a future feature. But it based on what it can do now. Too many times companies, for a variety of reasons, do not deliver.

Doesn’t DLBC do more than just align and EQ the subs? Doesn’t do some “magic” with the subs and the mains?

If so, what specifically does it do? I use MSO right now. But I’m considering a MiniDSP flex to monkey with my mains

 

[Dj7675]

Doesn’t DLBC do more than just align and EQ the subs? Doesn’t do some “magic” with the subs and the mains?

If so, what specifically does it do? I use MSO right now. But I’m considering a MiniDSP flex to monkey with my mains

Here is what it does…

Dirac Live Bass Control

Dirac Live Bass Control. Automate subwoofer optimization for a strong, smooth, and refined bass response in all listening positions.

www.dirac.com

It would be very interesting to have both and attempt to compare DLBC and MSO.

 

[hmt]

Doesn’t DLBC do more than just align and EQ the subs? Doesn’t do some “magic” with the subs and the mains?

If so, what specifically does it do? I use MSO right now. But I’m considering a MiniDSP flex to monkey with my mains

DLBC uses all pass filters on the mains and sats ensure a good summation with the subs in the crossover region. With the MiniDSP for the subs you can only us all pass filters for the subs (with a DDRC88A they are also possible on the sats). Wethere this makes any difference depends on your setup. When you have summation problems that cannot be solved by a delay on the subs DLBC has the potential to improve results.

 

[tjcinnamon]

DLBC uses all pass filters on the mains and sats ensure a good summation with the subs in the crossover region. With the MiniDSP for the subs you can only us all pass filters for the subs (with a DDRC88A they are also possible on the sats). Wethere this makes any difference depends on your setup. When you have summation problems that cannot be solved by a delay on the subs DLBC has the potential to improve results.

interesting you phrase it that way. It can improve results if there are summation problems but if there are no problems there's not much to fix. How would summation problems exhibit themselves visually in REW?

 

[GalZohar]

I couldn't find any clear explanation of what exactly the DLBC algorithm does. Have anyone actually measured said all pass filters? That would be interesting.
From what I understand it is, in principal, similar to MSO by running some kind of algorithm to individually eq/delay each sub to reach best summation, but can also apply filters to main speakers to improve integration.

Theoretically, could it also apply different filters to each signal that arrives from a crossover of a different speaker before summing it into the subwoofers? Would that have a useful benefit? Does it actually happen?

Anyway, maybe we should have a separate DLBC thread. I've yet to see detailed measurements showing what it actually did. Those kinds of tests/reviews are unfortunately pretty rare.

 

[onion]

I received a Purifi power amp today (Nord Acoustics) and am now running the base layer using this and a Lyngdorf. Subjectively speaking, this has significantly improved atmos performance and dialogue. The X3800H is now powering just the atmos layer.

 

[hmt]

interesting you phrase it that way. It can improve results if there are summation problems but if there are no problems there's not much to fix. How would summation problems exhibit themselves visually in REW?

I would say the problems exhibit themselves as some sort of dips in the crossover region that are not present in the frequency response of the sub or sats pre bass management. In the ends thos dips are cancellations due to different phase response of subs and sats.
For example: In some cases things like the sub distance tweak are sufficient. In some cases one altering the subs delay would only result in better summation of the L and R OR the C so you would have to make a compromise like go with the delay that is optimal for C+subs and trade in sub optimal response of LR+subs. All pass filters for each channel can help out here (they have their own downsides however).

 

[beaRA]

The issue from my understanding is that once I enable Audyssey, the X3800H will take my analog 2 channel input and redigitize it, process and then output it thought is lower quality DAC

This is not an "issue" because the benefits from bass management and room correction enabled by redigitizing the input far outweigh the SINAD reduction. These benefits are not content specific to only movie soundtracks.

 

[RF Air]

I'm in need of a new 9 channel receiver to replace my 20 year old Yamaha 1500, and ordered the 3800. Basically I want to add 4 ceiling Atmos speakers to my fairly state of the art laser projector/MadVR setup. However I do listen to a fair amount of 2 channel music. I may also add some transducers to the couch. I've also been thinking of tinkering with Dirac even though my attic home theater is quite neutral and Audyssey may be sufficient. Although I prefer Dirac included, don't mind upgrading in next year's budget. Currently I use a HDMI switch (Vertex2) to extract audio for my Yamaha receiver and a WIIM mini and Topping AKM DAC (115 SINAD) to play 2 channel music into the Yamaha in Pure Direct through Audirvana (for DSD and other hires support). I do listen to some Multichannel DSD and currently use a Panasonic UB-820's 5.1 analog out (AKM DAC) to the Yamaha multichannel analog input.

Am having some doubts after reading all the negative comments on the DAC of the 3800. However, I don't seem to have much choice:

1. I cannot get an Onkyo RZ50 here or any Pioneers. Seems like they only sell in certain countries
2. The Marantz Cinema 50 is much more expensive and may have the same issue with the TI DACs
3. The Yamaha A6A and especially Anthems are much more expensive.

For 2 channel music, I think I should be ok as I probably will continue to use the WIIM/Topping in Direct mode since no receiver has 115 SINAD and I like the WIIM interface. Amir's measurements of the amplifier section seem to be ok.

So the concern on the internal DAC would be:

1. Multichannel DSD since I don't see a multichannel analog input, and would have to convert to 5.1 PCM (Denons don't accept Multichannel DSD directly) and use the internal TI DAC.
2. Atmos soundtracks being decoded internally and run though the TI DAC. Supposedly explosions and other loud sounds may distort

Would appreciate opinions on my concerns over the internal DAC especially real life experiences of Atmos movie soundtracks being affected by a lower SINAD DAC. Also what alternatives do I have in new AVRs? Am reluctant to buy an older model as I want to future proof with HDMI 2.1 given I don't change receivers often.

I am in a similar boat as you. My Denon Legacy AVR just popped a Cap and is in Protection Mode. I run outboard McIntosh Amps for the 5 of my 5.1 System and have new REL S Series Subs (Pair) that have added greater depth to my Kef Ref Speakers (LCR & SR, SL). The REL's use Amp Line output signal at high impedance to draw a low level signal for driving the powered subs, plus an input for the .1 LFE.

At this point, with the disappointment of the 3800H and expected 4800H, I may opt to repair my Legacy Denon AVR, and wait another production cycle. The recent release of new performance DAC's on the market may come with later productions in the future Denon, that is my hope. The A1H Flagship due out soon is not as impressive as I would expect in performance, based on what I am seeing to be specified for the product release. The A1H may surprise us, but still not expecting the numbers to be worthy of the price and I don't want to leave money on the table when I can't justify the price/features/build/performance.

I like the Denon AVR's because I have had reliable and outstanding performance with their products for over 35 years. In view of the recent changes with Video (8K) and IC market with availability, I felt the 2020 Denon AVR's were just a little behind the curve for Video and Multichannel UI, so I pinned my hopes on the 2022 production. With the test results from @amirm , still feeling the Denon is behind the curve with the performance, but I am excited by the new DSP, UI and the new features and onboards like future Dirac which include the 4 Subs and new Amplifier design that was applied in the Flagship AVR.

Willing to wait and want to be wowed by the investment for the AVR. As someone mentioned earlier (maybe @peng or @amirm ), we vote with our dollars to support a company and their products. I believe the 4800H Amp class and Power would be sufficient for the Atmos, but may wait out for the 4900 or whatever comes in the next production cycle, probable 2024 is my guess. The Dirac multiple Bass is not scheduled until 2024, according to the 2800H/3800H Youtube Video that Denon released which was posted earlier in this thread. By then, the products "may" be ready and not quite "half-baked" with pending upgrades and regressive performance specifications, as tested here on ASR.

Meanwhile, the door is open for anyone that can offer a better product that rewards a serious investment in a SOTA that competitively fits the performance-feature-price-reliability metrics. "Is there anybody out there?"

 

[Narnian]

30 days into my 60 day evaluation period and so far I really like my X3800H. If there was a better option I would have taken it but the other AVRs I looked at actually tested worse or did not have the feature set I wanted. Plus I gave all of my Sonos stuff to my kids so I needed something immediately.

 

[gew55]

After 2 weekends listening to the x3800 I did some straight forward comparing with my smsl su-9 in stereo after 5 of my best recordings I was very disappointed about the inside elektronics/DAC of the Denon. I missed musicality, air, depth and nuance
The week after I saw a RSP-1576 mkII demo model with a big discount. So I changed the denon for this Rotel
OMG what a difference, musicality, air depth everything sounded amazing and my speakers never ever sounded this great.
Next thing to try is the dirac live, because that's for free on this amazing machine

 

[da Choge]

After 2 weekends listening to the x3800 I did some straight forward comparing with my smsl su-9 in stereo after 5 of my best recordings I was very disappointed about the inside elektronics/DAC of the Denon. I missed musicality, air, depth and nuance
The week after I saw a RSP-1576 mkII demo model with a big discount. So I changed the denon for this Rotel
OMG what a difference, musicality, air depth everything sounded amazing and my speakers never ever sounded this great.
Next thing to try is the dirac live, because that's for free on this amazing machine

I don't know how they would compare (the Denon AVR-X3800 vs. Rotel RSP-1576 MKII), but the Rotel has a few features that I really like. It is one of the few AV units that still retains the 7.1 multi-channel analog inputs (I have lots of ripped multichannel music discs and a ROON setup for multichannel music streaming), has a balanced stereo input, has Dirac already included, and it comes in silver, which is ideal for my bedroom setup. I knew it had a reputation of being a "musical" preamp, but good to hear that you really like this component. It is either between this Rotel AVP or one of the legacy Sound United AVRs that still has the 7.1 multi-channel inputs.

 

[Descartes]

They call it “A Game Changer”

Denon AVC-X3800H AV Receiver Review

Review of the Denon AVC-X3800H AV Receiver with 9 channels of amplification and 11.4 channels of processing plus Audyssey and (promised) Dirac correction

www.avforums.com

Looking forward to seeing the review from Gene!

Dirac Roadmap for 2022 Denon & Marantz AV Products

In this editorial we discuss a roadmap of Dirac room correction support for ALL Denon and Marantz AV products that are planning support for 2022 and beyond. What version, will there be fees? All discussed.

www.audioholics.com