Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[Fidji]

Thanks. I know I read somewhere that Martin Logan and Anthem say to run the ARC in the sub first, then do a full correction from an AVR, mini dsp, etc.

I am bit hesitant to do it - I am not fully comfortable with e.g. MiniDsp adding another 6dB in the exact same frequency as ARC ... - but I actually never needed it. Every DRC should be able to take care of bass frequencies. Is their basic competency.

I use REW sub alignment tool for gain/delay and cut the peaks via PEQ before letting Trinnov to handle them..

 

[Doctors11]

My understanding is the built in ARC will do a nice job so the running of Dirac won't have to do as much to smooth out any irregularities.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Dynamo 800x from MartinLogan, sealed.

To integrate - easy with Trinnov. What is important - this is not "bass management" but active crossover type of setup for C+800X calibrated as such. As you can see - L-R have 2x10in active each, so this is coherent across the screen side. I have 3 subs in "minidsp/MSO" setup used to bass manage front side [FW&FH] + LFE and 2 subs again in the same config for rear speakers [S-SB-SH-RH]

Room is around 32sqm so 4x12 in , 1*15in 1*10in, are more than enough [add 4*10in on L-R] and you have enough of oomph.

You would probably need to use MiniDsp or some other active Xover.

Thanks. I got a minidsp 2x4HD recently...need to sit down and start learning all that new world soon

 

[Fidji]

Thanks. I got a minidsp 2x4HD recently...need to sit down and start learning all that new world soon

2x4HD is one terrific piece of gear. Pair it with REW + MSO [multi-sub-optimizer] software and it will bring your HT to completely different level.
[just between us, there are lot of folks, that prefer 2x4&MSO to internal Trinnov optimizer [for one, it allows to save channels in those crazy 15.16.10 and so on setups ;-) ]

 

[GalZohar]

Thanks. I know I read somewhere that Martin Logan and Anthem say to run the ARC in the sub first, then do a full correction from an AVR, mini dsp, etc.

That might be good if the AVR has crappy EQ. Otherwise what Fidji said applies.

 

[mclement1964]

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Denon AVR-X3800H 9.4 Home Theater Audio/Video Receiver. It was kindly drop shipped to me by a member and costs US $1,699.
View attachment 239676
Not much to say about the look of the unit as it is pretty much similar/same as last generations. Here is the back panel:
View attachment 239677

I had one operational problem with the unit where the Setup button would not bring up the menus anymore. A power cycle fixed it. I was happy to see solid extruded aluminum heatsink. Despite that, the top front of the of the unit (above the heatsink) got quite hot to the touch. I highly recommend ample airflow in that area. As usual, there is a fan there but it would not come on to cool the unit.

I grabbed a preliminary set of measurements from the DAC section of the 3800H and ran it by the company. Within typical margin of error, the measurements were the same as company's own.

Denon AVR-X3800H DAC Measurements
The DAC measurements and usage are made better by a global "preamplifier" mode which shuts down the amps and keeps them from overloading the unit during testing. I started my tests using Toslink optical to remove any possibility of ground loops:
View attachment 239678

I was fair bit disappointed to see the high distortion spikes which caused the unit to underperform the AVR-X3700H by some 10 dB. This naturally knocks down the positioning of the unit by good bit in our SINAD ranking:
View attachment 239679
The culprit seems to be the optimal output shifting fair bit lower in voltage:
View attachment 239680

With amps shut off, the 3700H was happy to go 2.0 volts.

So fairly large degradation here. Company explanation was that this was good enough for "99%" of the external amps out there. Be that as it may, it still doesn't explain the drop in performance at the peak level (101 dB for 3700 vs 95 for 3800).

Connecting HDMI causes a rise in noise floor but SINAD didn't change since it is dominated by distortion:
View attachment 239682

Fortunately dynamic range is unchanged from last generation:
View attachment 239683

IMD is naturally worse due to earlier saturation:
View attachment 239684

Linearity has suffered a bit:

View attachment 239685

Multitone shows the degradation we would expect:
View attachment 239686

Due to different DAC chip used (?), the filter performance is a bit worse as well:
View attachment 239687


View attachment 239688

This naturally increases the noise+distortion in our wideband measurements:

View attachment 239689

Quite poor result.

Jitter is bad but so was the last generation:
View attachment 239690

Denon AVR-X3800H Amplifier Measurements:
Let's start with analog input with and without pure mode:
View attachment 239691
This is good results.

Crosstalk is very similar to last generation and in need of some improvement:
View attachment 239692

Dashboard performance is a bit worse than last generation but not as bad as the hit in the DAC section:
View attachment 239693

View attachment 239694
HDMI input raises the noise floor:
View attachment 239695

Fortunately noise performance is the same as before:
View attachment 239696
Multitone has power supply noise in lower frequencies and rising distortion in highs:
View attachment 239701

Rest of the measurements are essentially identical to last generation AVR:
View attachment 239697

View attachment 239698

View attachment 239699

View attachment 239700

All in all, the amplifier is as performant as before.

Conclusions
I had high hopes going into this review thinking the company had seen the advantage its superior objective measurements in the past and would try to capitalize on them. Sadly, the reverse seems to be true with the DAC section taking a large step backward. Considering that the 3800 costs $500 more than 3700H, this is very surprising to me. Yes, inflation has a lot to do with that but surely the eye needed to be focused on making sure they at least met the same level of performance as last generation.

The good news is that the amplifier seems to be same design as last generation and has only taken a small hit.

Denon had been my "goto" recommendation for AVRs and even AVPs. When anyone asked me about either, I would just say "get a Denon AVR." While subjectively the performance of this new generation may be similar, I can't accept the regression in objective measured performance.

It is with much sadness that I cannot recommend the Denon AVR-X3800H.

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As always, questions, comments, recommendations, etc. are welcome.

Any donations are much appreciated using: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-to-support-audio-science-review.8150/

The AVR X3800H is my 2nd ATMOS capable AVR. The previous one being a Yamaha AVR A860 7.1 / 5.1.2.
Regardless of how the 3800 measures, it sounds fantastic and Ive really been enjoying it.
One caveat: Ive had AVR's since the advent of Dolby Pro Logic, and stereo receivers before then.
This 3800 gets crazy HOT! So hot 1 might think it has vacuum tubes inside it. There are reviews online that confirm that this thing is a heat monster. Ive NEVER had a SS device get this hot on me. s
I added an Emotiva BasX A7 external amplifier and an AC Infiniti Aircom T10 to my stack at the same time.
I turned off all the amplifier channels that were taken over by the A7.
With the T10 on top of the 3800, no fans running, just thermal monitoring, I ran the Audyssey Multi EQ app through 8 mic positions.
Ambient room temp was 72*F.
At the end of the Audyssey measurements, the 3800 reached 110*F! Thats with 7 amps shut off and nowhere near the load of typical movie playback. That 110*F was still a lot cooler than when I was running 5.3.4 with no external amplifier.
I switched on the T10. In minutes it cooled down to 84*.
In everyday use, the 3800 rarely hits 85* with the T10, usually stabilizing at 84*, regardless of how loud I play my music or movies.
Heat is definitely an issue with my 3800.
If you cant deal with the sound of an occasional fan or add a fan to your system, I dont recommend it. If you can deal with a fan, then YES! get this receiver!

 

[Trell]

The AVR X3800H is my 2nd ATMOS capable AVR. The previous one being a Yamaha AVR A860 7.1 / 5.1.2.
Regardless of how the 3800 measures, it sounds fantastic and Ive really been enjoying it.
One caveat: Ive had AVR's since the advent of Dolby Pro Logic, and stereo receivers before then.
This 3800 gets crazy HOT! So hot 1 might think it has vacuum tubes inside it. There are reviews online that confirm that this thing is a heat monster. Ive NEVER had a SS device get this hot on me. s
I added an Emotiva BasX A7 external amplifier and an AC Infiniti Aircom T10 to my stack at the same time.
I turned off all the amplifier channels that were taken over by the A7.
With the T10 on top of the 3800, no fans running, just thermal monitoring, I ran the Audyssey Multi EQ app through 8 mic positions.
Ambient room temp was 72*F.
At the end of the Audyssey measurements, the 3800 reached 110*F! Thats with 7 amps shut off and nowhere near the load of typical movie playback. That 110*F was still a lot cooler than when I was running 5.3.4 with no external amplifier.
I switched on the T10. In minutes it cooled down to 84*.
In everyday use, the 3800 rarely hits 85* with the T10, usually stabilizing at 84*, regardless of how loud I play my music or movies.
Heat is definitely an issue with my 3800.
If you cant deal with the sound of an occasional fan or add a fan to your system, I dont recommend it. If you can deal with a fan, then YES! get this receiver!

I’ve fans on top of my seven year old Denon AVR-X4200W, and also has ECO set to auto. The ECO setting turns on when my listening is less than -30, which is the majority of my listening, and reduces the temperature a little.

 

[ban25]

I’ve fans on top of my seven year old Denon AVR-X4200W, and also has ECO set to auto. The ECO setting turns on when my listening is less than -30, which is the majority of my listening, and reduces the temperature a little.

+1 on making sure ECO is set to Auto.

 

[rvsixer]

Unless I missed it, I have seen no 6800 being in the pipeline. So I am hoping/holding out for the 4800 having front wide support (limited to use with four overheads) just like the 6700 had (an 11-channel processor, but with 13-channel processing under certain configs).

Otherwise, yes totally agree no reason for 4800 over 3800 for most consumers.

With the 4800 manual finally available online, I've been able to confirm it has no front wide support. So on the face of it, there really is no reason to go 4800 over 3800 (especially if using external amplification). But I will be going through both manuals thoroughly to confirm....

 

[GabrielPhoto]

With the 4800 manual finally available online, I've been able to confirm it has no front wide support. So on the face of it, there really is no reason to go 4800 over 3800 (especially if using external amplification). But I will be going through both manuals thoroughly to confirm....

Oh wow indeed. What we gonna get? Maybe a bit extra power (useless for people with amps) and a bit better sinad maybe which when using preamp mode is already high with the 3800h?
Looks like it will be mainly a choice between 3800h and 6800h

 

[Trell]

Oh wow indeed. What we gonna get? Maybe a bit extra power (useless for people with amps) and a bit better sinad maybe which when using preamp mode is already high with the 3800h?
Looks like it will be mainly a choice between 3800h and 6800h

You do get a metal lid covering the controls as well as a larger display (not sure about the display).

 

[amper42]

You do get a metal lid covering the controls as well as a larger display (not sure about the display).

Yes, you get a metal front plate on the 4800 that is less flexible and may break out of it's track with a rough shipment. When this happens the front cover cannot shut. I experienced this first hand with my Denon 4500 coming back from repair. It's not an easy fix and needed to go back for repair again.

With no HDMI on the front of the Denon 4800 and AURO-3D available on lower end models, it's amazingly difficult to recommend the 4800 over the 3800. $800 more for a 2-line display and a metal cover seems a bit steep. In fact, it's hard to recommend the Denon 3800 when the Denon 4700 is available for $1499.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089Y5KMFQ/ref=asc_df_B089Y5KMFQ/

 

[Trell]

Yes, you get a metal front plate on the 4800 that is less flexible and may break out of it's track with a rough shipment. When this happens the front cover cannot shut. I experienced this first hand with my Denon 4500 coming back from repair. It's not an easy fix and needed to go back for repair again.

With no HDMI on the front of the Denon 4800 and AURO-3D available on lower end models, it's amazingly difficult to recommend the 4800 over the 3800. $800 more for a 2-line display and a metal cover seems a bit steep. In fact, it's hard to recommend the Denon 3800 when the Denon 4700 is available for $1499.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089Y5KMFQ/ref=asc_df_B089Y5KMFQ/

I’m still rocking my Denon AVR-X4200W that I bought seven years ago, and no plans to buy a new receiver unless the one I have breaks. I’ve a 5.2 setup, and no plans for any more speakers or subwoofers.

That receiver was, at that time, the lowest end Denon AVR with Audyssey XT32. Since then the 3000 has it as well.

It also has the front HDMI input but no Audyssey app.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

Yes, you get a metal front plate on the 4800 that is less flexible and may break out of it's track with a rough shipment. When this happens the front cover cannot shut. I experienced this first hand with my Denon 4500 coming back from repair. It's not an easy fix and needed to go back for repair again.

With no HDMI on the front of the Denon 4800 and AURO-3D available on lower end models, it's amazingly difficult to recommend the 4800 over the 3800. $800 more for a 2-line display and a metal cover seems a bit steep. In fact, it's hard to recommend the Denon 3800 when the Denon 4700 is available for $1499.
https://www.amazon.com/Denon-AVR-X4700H-Ultra-Channel-Receiver/dp/B089Y5KMFQ/ref=asc_df_B089Y5KMFQ/

True altought you have the argument of extra features like 4 subs, selective preamp mode, tactile transducer and Dirac next year

 

[amper42]

True altought you have the argument of extra features like 4 subs, selective preamp mode, tactile transducer and Dirac next year

I have never found a need for 4 subs. Two good ones do an excelent job. Three or four subs is excess expense I don't need. Selective preamp mode is nice but full preamp mode provides much better measurements and cooler AVR operation. Denon Dirac is a pipe dream. Once you have it, the subs still won't have Dirac so even more expense to correct that. Audyssey does the job already. You can pay more for unneeded stuff. That's how business up selling works.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

I have never found a need for 4 subs. Two good ones do an excelent job. Three or four subs is excess expense I don't need. Selective preamp mode is nice but full preamp mode provides much better measurements and cooler AVR operation. Denon Dirac is a pipe dream. Once you have it, the subs still won't have Dirac so even more expense to correct that. Audyssey does the job already. You can pay more for unneeded stuff. That's how business up selling works.

Too many assumptions though...
First, for YOU 2 subs are enough....for others is not. For some one is enough...we are all different.
Selective preamp on the 3800h is already high 90db SINAD so hardly anything between that and the 4700h in full preamp mode BUT , with the 3800, I could use my 7 channel amp and use the AVR for the atmos since I can do selective preamp. With the 4700h if I dont want to go down to 80db SINAD (at 1.6v), I will need an extra expense of a 4 channel amp.
Then there is also the feature of the tactile transducer which again, is a feature that some of us may use and others may not care about.
There is nothing "pipe dream" about DIRAC. It is coming March next year, pretty clear. Audyssey does A job already but is it as good as DIRAC? A lot of people feel otherwise.
It is not about paying more for uneded stuff.... it is about FEATURES that some people may want and others may not. So no, it is not about upselling, is about choices since we all have different needs.

 

[Trell]

Too many assumptions though...
First, for YOU 2 subs are enough....for others is not. For some one is enough...we are all different.
Selective preamp on the 3800h is already high 90db SINAD so hardly anything between that and the 4700h in full preamp mode BUT , with the 3800, I could use my 7 channel amp and use the AVR for the atmos since I can do selective preamp. With the 4700h if I dont want to go down to 80db SINAD (at 1.6v), I will need an extra expense of a 4 channel amp.
There is nothing "pipe dream" about DIRAC. It is coming March next year, pretty clear. Audyssey does A job already but is it as good as DIRAC? A lot of people feel otherwise.
It is not about paying more for uneded stuff.... it is about FEATURES that some people may want and others may not. So no, it is not about upselling, is about choices since we all have different needs.

For more than one subwoofer with Dirac Live you need DLBC which is supposed to come in 2024 to the Denon receivers as yet another add-on you have to buy as compared to Audyssey XT32. Unclear what the price will be.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

For more than one subwoofer you need DLBC which is supposed to come in 2024 to the Denon receivers as yet another addon you have buy.

as yet another addon you have the OPTION to buy.
You dont NEED, there is also miniDSP, or there is speculation of Ady and Dirac "mix" so maybe you could use XT32 for the subs..who knows about that right now, but it is an option. I rather have the option to add features than not.

 

[Trell]

as yet another addon you have the OPTION to buy.
You dont NEED, there is also miniDSP, or there is speculation of Ady and Dirac "mix" so maybe you could use XT32 for the subs..who knows about that right now, but it is an option. I rather have the option to add features than not.

I think that a mix of Audyssey and Dirac Live is very unlikely to be implemented.

If one wants to use more than one subwoofer without some external box from another manufacturer, there is Audyssey XT32 available now. That one works now and is included in the price of the receiver.

 

[GabrielPhoto]

I think that a mix of Audyssey and Dirac Live is very unlikely to be implemented.

If one wants to use more than one subwoofer without some external box from another manufacturer, there is Audyssey XT32 available now. That one works now and is included in the price of the receiver.

Is likely or unlikely...is anybody's guess right now.
The 3800h can still use xt32 and for 4 subs or 3 subs and tactile...and etc etc...once again my point is, it has features the 4700h does not have which some may want and others don't need.
Just as simple as having options and picking what works for each of us