Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[peng]

Yeah, there was a Japanese press release, with precisely no details whatsoever about what they changed to. If they would have done that, the outrage would have started even earlier.

Exactly, the Japan website even posted a photo image of the new DAC board that has a very similar layout to the original, you can see the two ICs that have the same 48 pin chip. I posted the images of the old and new board side by side. That indicated to me now after the fact, that may be (pure speculation..) during their development/planning stage they might have picked an 8 channel chip, and I wonder why they still have not updated their website.

AVR-X4700H | 9.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドレシーバー | Denon公式

AVR-X4700Hの製品詳細ページです。8K Ultra HD、IMAX Enhanced、Auro-3D対応。9.2chプレミアムAVサラウンドレシーバー。

www.denon.jp

I just checked the Japan website out of curiosity, they still show a DAC board that shows two chips that have much more pins than the PCM chips. You can barely but clearly see them if you copy/paste/magnify the image. The two chips are surrounded by the bunch of capacitors, and there are no signs of the 7 or 8 PCM 5102As.

Found my post on the old vs new DAC boards found on the Denon.jp site.

Denon Replaces AKM AK4458 DAC IC in X4700H and X6700H

The 3700 or 3xxx range not sold in Japan. Drop to 2700 or jump to 4700, 4500. Disappointing since 3700 offers MultEq xt32 as well as other features in 4700 but not quite as expensive. Guess Denon wants folks to choose up or down for margins maybe leave mid tier to Marantz ? Anyway sucks for...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

To avoid confusion between the two models, Peng referred to them as 3700AKM and 3700PCM or something. I would suggest we call the first versions “Limited Edition,” and Amir change their reviews’ titles to match. It’s a more representative term since they had a limited run of 70000 anyways: Limited Edition X3700H and Limited Edition X4700H. That term would have had more weight.

 

[beagleman]

I haven't heard the x3800H personally (yet), so I don't know if it's audibly (perceptibly?) any better or worse than the x3700H. If the audible difference is literally negligible from a human perspective, then it's not a step backwards in a major area of performance that affects anything other than a highly sensitive recording device.

But really - if you don't need 4 subs out, nor Dirac, and you're not heavily into 8K video processing (who really is at the moment?), then getting the x3800H over the x3700H is moot anyway. Save your money, and get the x3700H refurb for $1,200.

I still question if numbers such as this unit generated "Truly" matter in reality though.

Most actual program material, let alone loudspeaker transducers will produce much more noise and distortion. Would you hear the Denon noise and distortion OVER larger sources of noise and distortion??

Yes you might hear it in a lab setting on headphones with test tones, in a totally quiet test room, but do we really listen that way?

That is the difference between audibility thresholds and actual usage audibility.
In a very quiet living room.......very doubtful any of this matters......

Does it matter in THEORY, well yes....but........it is a merry go round............

 

[Persik]

How do you folks deal with the dust that settles inside of AVR?
I have a previous version 3700, that is standing on top of the cabinet to ensure airflow, for already couple of years. Shall I open an enclosure and blast with compressed air or there are other methods?

 

[Vacceo]

Don’t worry, there are all kinds of old geezer audiophiles that must have very bad hearing, but have veils lifted on a daily basis. You can do it! Just have a little faith

I'm part of the school who prefers veils to pound hard after some subwoofer cranking...

 

[peng]

I still question if numbers such as this unit generated "Truly" matter in reality though.

Most actual program material, let alone loudspeaker transducers will produce much more noise and distortion. Would you hear the Denon noise and distortion OVER larger sources of noise and distortion??

Yes you might hear it in a lab setting on headphones with test tones, in a totally quiet test room, but do we really listen that way?

That is the difference between audibility thresholds and actual usage audibility.
In a very quiet living room.......very doubtful any of this matters......

Does it matter in THEORY, well yes....but........it is a merry go round............

How about you start a poll?
Such as:
Response A: Yes it truly matters in reality in terms of audibility even for real world home use, not just in a "lab setting".
Response B: No, it does not matter in terms of real world audibility for most users, but still don't like the fact that Denon/Marantz switch to a DAC IC that has significantly higher distortions than the one it replaced.

I would vote B and I am sure the majority will too.

 

[Trell]

How about you start a poll?
Such as:
Response A: Yes it truly matters in reality in terms of audibility even for real world home use, not just in a "lab setting".
Response B: No, it does not matter in terms of real world audibility for most users, but still don't like the fact that Denon/Marantz switch to a DAC IC that has significantly higher distortions than the one it replaced.

I would vote B and I am sure the majority will too.

The poll should include that this lesser performance comes at a substantial price increase as well.

 

[beagleman]

The poll should include that this lesser performance comes at a substantial price increase as well.

Good idea, except what about all the huge inflation over the last couple years.
Not sure we can realistically account for that ...

 

[Trell]

Good idea, except what about all the huge inflation over the last couple years.
Not sure we can realistically account for that ...

It’s a choice Denon made, after all, to reduce cost by using a lesser performant DAC IC than previous generation. The price hike is their decision as well.

I’m in camp B in Pengs suggested poll.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

@Kal Rubinson , can you tell us where that 6-8 dB drop came from, did you get it from Dirac customer support, or just based on your own experience/setup? Thank you.

It was based on my own measurements of pink noise signal with DL and DL-bypassed. I was motivated to make the measurements because, in practice, I had noticed that when I used DL, my preamp settings were consistently higher for "normal" listening.

 

[peng]

It was based on my own measurements of pink noise signal with DL and DL-bypassed. I was motivated to make the measurements because, in practice, I had noticed that when I used DL, my preamp settings were consistently higher for "normal" listening.

Thank you very much. So there could be other reasons specifically to your setup. In my case you can see the drop isn't significant at all except for the bass removal from below 200 Hz. @Dj7675 might have similar or even more drop to yours.

May be we need @Flak to shed some light on this. If it is in fact that much of a level drop by design than Dj7675 is right, one would have to make sure one's preamp has adequate head room. For every 6 dB drop, the pre out voltage will be halved. Then again, why am I not getting the such a drop, is it because mine is the PC standalone version, that's a question I hope Flak can answer.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Then again, why am I not getting the such a drop, is it because mine is the PC standalone version, that's I question I hope Flak can answer.

Same here.

 

[CyrusTheGreat_600BC]

many peopl forgot that 10% is an average. some products got higher price hike. With the chip shortage, it's very likely the components price increased quite a lot.
I'm bit sad with the new price, and I'm aware that many companies are taking advantage of inflation. but without better data I'd just give Denon benefits of the doubt

Price of 3700 in November 2020 was $1199 as I bought mine from BestBuy and posted the receipt some pages back, so it’s not 10% increase but close to 42%. They already increased it for 3700 once after their DAC downgrade in January 2021 to perhaps account for HDMI 2.1 fix and redesign.

 

[voodooless]

many peopl forgot that 10% is an average. some products got higher price hike. With the chip shortage, it's very likely the components price increased quite a lot.

We already know what these DACs cost. We also know they could have made a cheaper, better-performing choice. DAC boards are probably < $ 50.

Whatever led to the price increase, it's not the DACs.

 

[rpki]

Would you say the same about a TV released with a load of new features compared to the previous model but 'worse' measured infrared 'performance' (a difference your eyes won't detect)?

Nope because this is not an important feature. DAC performance is a key feature. I'd expect at least last models performance.

 

[DerRoland]

1hr Video by Sound United posted 20min ago:

This video is in different ways a slap in our ASR faces, e.g. with the slogan "we always work on sound improvements, are looking for new parts for better performance".

I also don´t like the misleading background picture of a 2 line AVR display in the 3800 section, the receiver has only a single line display.

One interesting point: the voltage from amp disconnected pre-outs can reach 3,75V (with even lower SINAD).

 

[markk]

"seem" is the key word. If you look very carefully, the 3700 is not worse overall as all of the higher order ones are below the -120 dB line, there are a few more that peaked through the -130 dB line vs the 3800's, but overall they look the same to me. As for the 2nd and 3rd, yes I made the same observations pages ago and voiced my opinion that in a blind test one would not be able to tell a difference, based on the FFTs comparison like you just did. But in my opinion, the downgrade of the relatively cheap IC should not be welcome. For less than $20 more they could have made everyone much happier.

Well, so, honestly, it's hard to make a summary judgement based on one graph. You are correct that the levels are not particularly different

But there are indeed more higher order distortion products in the 3700 graph posted that are distinct from the noise. I'm going on really, my audible interpretation of speaker unit distortion graphs and the corresponding distortion that I have heard. When I was doing all my nonlinear speaker driver testing, I learned to pick up on particular patterns of distortion that occur commonly in loudspeaker units. Certain patterns of distortion on the FFT correlated with audible distortion, even apart from the actual levels.

If the 3700 was a midrange driver, I would be worried that it would develop audible midrange distortion before the 3800.

But this is a dac/amp, not a loudspeaker, so it's probably not exactly an apples to apples comparison. And well, it's the wrong graph anyways. Ooops!

And I agree that, for a small increase in cost, this problem goes away. Like Amir said, it's not a cheap lifestyle soundbar. The bar for enthusiast equipment is a bit higher, I would hope.

 

[DerRoland]

How's that a slap on the face?

The measurements from Amir disprove the made promise of Denon, that they improve each receiver generation.

They could frankly explain the actual worse sinad, but they choose instead "we don´t care about ASR at all".

 

[minus3dB]

I do not disagree. It would obviously be beneficial if Denon made a statement about why they chose (or had to choose) the TI DACs over DACs that would have had performance closer to the original 3700 DACs.

If they did so, and the explanation made sense, I think people potentially would be more understanding of the decision.

Most likely however we will never get the details behind the decision as it is likely a top management decision with some margin based numbers backing the decision (which would probably not sit well with the people that care about the DAC change and corresponding performance numbers), or potentially something that is under NDA because of agreement structures with TI.

I agree that better transparency would be beneficial to both high volume customers (Best Buy, etc) and engineering contrarians (many of us) and probably to SU in the long run. I had a good chuckle when I saw in the new Marantz owner's manual an explanation of the user's choice of two anti-aliasing filters in the DAC: one described as "the Marantz sound" and the other described as being included for testing purposes (read: ASR). It was almost like a double-edged sword tip of the hat to ASR on one hand and a FU on the other, at least that was my take....i.e., ASR can use this one while testing while people who care about how it sounds will select our filter. lol

 

[minus3dB]

How about you start a poll?
Such as:
Response A: Yes it truly matters in reality in terms of audibility even for real world home use, not just in a "lab setting".
Response B: No, it does not matter in terms of real world audibility for most users, but still don't like the fact that Denon/Marantz switch to a DAC IC that has significantly higher distortions than the one it replaced.

I would vote B and I am sure the majority will too.

I'd reword the 2nd one since if the distortion is not audible to most listeners it can't be significant.