Denon AVR-X3800H Review

[G-Can]

With his opinion Amir gave an explanation. What is that difficult for you to understand?

A simple thing.

Calling scientific measurements a REVIEW which for all the scientists here should be a sore eye and it defies scientific approach to things.

A REVIEW is a complete overview of features , specs, and actual performance in a room including scientific measurements.

That's all there is to it.

 

[JBanville]

With his opinion Amir gave an explanation. What is that difficult for you to understand?

I understood he said it had poor/worse measurements than a previous model, and Denon avr’s were his go to recommendation up until now, but because of these measurements (which we’ve learned by you all in this thread, are most likely not even audible) he can’t recommend this model….without even bothering to listen to it first. That about sum it up?

 

[peng]

Hmm…Maybe it’s because he/she ordered this 2 days ago to replace his/her 3600, and ran across this non-review while looking up info on the new features, etc.
Then he/she was floored by the ridiculous idea of not listening to an audio product under review. Lol.

And rambling is what has been going on here by folks trying to rationalize the idea that measurements that aren’t audible are somehow relevant to the sound an audio product creates to the point of it being “not recommended”! Crazy, right?!

Did you know that at least one electrical engineer who had designed many audio gear(including the legendary Quad current dumping design) who might not have listened to some of his products before going to market, though as he clarified, they did listen to them for other reasons.

Peter walker ( Quad)

We designed our valve amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, 'Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it.' However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here's the original article, an interview, just in case you may be interested or curious enough to read more about it:

https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/pwint1.txt

No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision. For those who know how to interpret specifications and measurements may feel confident enough to make their own decision without doing listening tests, though if it is easy enough to do it, I am sure they will do it too.

 

[JBanville]

A simple thing.

Calling scientific measurements a REVIEW which for all the scientists here should be a sore eye and it defies scientific approach to things.

A REVIEW is a complete overview of features , specs, and actual performance in a room including scientific measurements.

That's all there is to it.

Just change title to “Denon AVR-X3800h Overview & Measurements” with the disclaimer that his measurement results likely aren’t audible to most people, and since he didn’t even bother listening to an audio product, he’ll leave the conclusion of it’s actual audio quality to the people who DO listen to it.

 

[G-Can]

Just change title to “Denon AVR-X3800h Overview & Measurements” with the disclaimer that his measurement results likely aren’t audible to most people, and since he didn’t even bother listening to an audio product, he’ll leave the conclusion of it’s actual audio quality to the people who DO listen to it.

exactly, and I'm with you on that one.

But I will ask a question that maybe someone can answer.

Not audible to most people. So I wonder how do we know or determine who can hear those flaws then? Humans over 40 years of age anyways don't hear anything above 15khz.

Maybe someone could explain that part of review and what are the predisposition to be able to hear those flaws

 

[JBanville]

Did you know that at least one electrical engineer who had designed many audio gear(including the legendary Quad current dumping design) who might not have listened to some of his products before going to market, though as he clarified, they did listen to them for other reasons.

Peter walker ( Quad)

We designed our valve amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, 'Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it.' However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision. For those who know how to interpret specifications and measurements may feel confident enough to make their own decision without doing listening tests, though if it is easy enough to do it, I am sure they will do it too.

Where have I said a good measuring piece of audio gear can’t ever sound good without listening to it?
Measuring is important to designing any audio gear.
I’m saying if you claim a piece of audio gear is not good, poor, etc because of measurements that may not even be audible, that claim should be validated by listening. If normal people with normal hearing actual HEAR issues that correlate with the measurement…End of story. Job done. I’ve yet to find any evidence of that happening with this product. Have you?

 

[JBanville]

Did you know that at least one electrical engineer who had designed many audio gear(including the legendary Quad current dumping design) who might not have listened to some of his products before going to market, though as he clarified, they did listen to them for other reasons.

Peter walker ( Quad)

We designed our valve amplifier, manufactured it, and put it on the market, and never actually listened to it. In fact, the same applies to the 303 and the 405. People say, 'Well that's disgusting, you ought to have listened to it.' However, we do a certain amount of listening tests, but they...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here's the original article, an interview, just in case you may be interested or curious enough to read more about it:

https://geocities.restorativland.org/ResearchTriangle/Lab/6722/pwint1.txt

No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision. For those who know how to interpret specifications and measurements may feel confident enough to make their own decision without doing listening tests, though if it is easy enough to do it, I am sure they will do it too.

“No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision.”

Have you even read this thread?? Folks have said all they need are measurements.

 

[popej]

That about sum it up?

Yes. Amir performed interesting measurements and then commented it.

A REVIEW is a complete overview of features , specs, and actual performance in a room including scientific measurements.

Apparently for components, which are audibly transparent, review here is mostly measurements. I would like feature tested as well, but you cant have it all.

 

[JBanville]

Yes. Amir performed interesting measurements and then commented it.


Apparently for components, which are audibly transparent, review here is mostly measurements. I would like feature tested as well, but you cant have it all.

“Yes. Amir performed interesting measurements and then commented it.”

I didn’t find anything particularly interesting about the measurements. They’re the same ones we see time and time again.
What WOULD have been interesting is if he could have correlated his listening experience to the measurements.

Sorry, but I’m not giving that pass on a published “review” in the context of this forum.
Folks here always have excuses. They say he didn’t have time, he’s too busy, it’s this, it’s that. C’mon man. He goes through all the time doing these measurements, taking photos, compiling graphs, etc etc, and he doesn’t have time to actually LISTEN to a product deigned to create SOUND?!
It’s like a cook who gathers all the ingredients for a dish and puts them all together, but fails to actually cook it and says, based on the proper ingredients and preparation, the dish would have tasted like this…. Lol! Soooo the actual COOKING part is apparently irrelevant!
Pro reviewers have a list of music, etc they have curated over time that they use to listen to audio gear to determine its strengths and weaknesses. An hour or less is all that is required to form an informed opinion of an audio products “sound” for a REVIEW.

 

[G-Can]

Yes. Amir performed interesting measurements and then commented it.


Apparently for components, which are audibly transparent, review here is mostly measurements. I would like feature tested as well, but you cant have it all.

Yes, but in this world, for a wrong usage of words you end in prison today

A review is really a wrong term for these scientific testing applications.

I hope we agree on this. And I hope we understand Jbans opinion.

I was the same and still decided against that "review" because I didn't find it convincing and went and bought the unit.

 

[peng]

“No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision.”

Have you even read this thread?? Folks have said all they need are measurements.

That's fine for me, if not for you then it is not for you. In some cases, that's all one needs, in other cases, may be not. You just seem to think in terms of black and one, I hope not though.

 

[JBanville]

That's fine for me, if not for you then it is not for you. In some cases, that's all one needs, in other cases, may be not. You just seem to think in terms of black and one, I hope not though.

Yes. Agreed. That’s fine for you. I was simply replying to the person who said “No one has suggested that you don't or shouldn't listen to audio gear before making your decision.”

But I am curious, since you say “In some cases, that's all one needs, in other cases, may be not”… what about the measurements of this AVR we’re discussing would determine if you needed to listen or not to make your decision?

 

[jhwalker]

“Yes. Amir performed interesting measurements and then commented it.”

I didn’t find anything particularly interesting about the measurements. They’re the same ones we see time and time again.
What WOULD have been interesting is if he could have correlated his listening experience to the measurements.

Sorry, but I’m not giving that pass on a published “review” in the context of this forum.
Folks here always have excuses. They say he didn’t have time, he’s too busy, it’s this, it’s that. C’mon man. He goes through all the time doing these measurements, taking photos, compiling graphs, etc etc, and he doesn’t have time to actually LISTEN to a product deigned to create SOUND?!
It’s like a cook who gathers all the ingredients for a dish and puts them all together, but fails to actually cook it and says, based on the proper ingredients and preparation, the dish would have tasted like this…. Lol! Soooo the actual COOKING part is apparently irrelevant!
Pro reviewers have a list of music, etc they have curated over time that they use to listen to audio gear to determine its strengths and weaknesses. An hour or less is all that is required to form an informed opinion of an audio products “sound” for a REVIEW.

"Sound" is subjective. Measurements AREN'T.

Amir has focused this website on MEASUREMENTS, not marketing fluff or "sound", though he does usually comment on the sound of speakers or headphones, at least in passing.

 

[popej]

A review is really a wrong term for these scientific testing applications.

I have read a lot of audio reviews. Most are simply like marketing talk or rephrasing of marketing materials, repeating of manual info or total confabulation, based on ignorance. The only facts that I find in reviews are measurements. I don't remember reviews with listening test based on scientific foundations. I rarely see features test, that go further than obvious info from manual.

So as afar as it goes for audio review, Amir provides the essential information without additional BS.

 

[EWL5]

Apparently for components, which are audibly transparent, review here is mostly measurements. I would like feature tested as well, but you cant have it all.

Feature testing is best suited for the publications I referenced before since they're really out to sell magazines and prove their expertise with product differentiation.

 

[JBanville]

"Sound" is subjective. Measurements AREN'T.

Amir has focused this website on MEASUREMENTS, not marketing fluff or "sound", though he does usually comment on the sound of speakers or headphones, at least in passing.

Agreed. That’s why I was shocked when he said he didn’t recommend this AVR without even bothering to listen to it. That’s a pretty unique way to “review” a piece of AUDIO gear.
I’m all for measuring audio gear, but if you’re going to make a stink about some aspects of the measurements, it should correlate to something AUDIBLE. What’s the point if you can’t hear it?

 

[EWL5]

Hmm…Maybe it’s because he/she ordered this 2 days ago to replace his/her 3600, and ran across this non-review while looking up info on the new features, etc.
Then he/she was floored by the ridiculous idea of not listening to an audio product under review. Lol.

And rambling is what has been going on here by folks trying to rationalize the idea that measurements that aren’t audible are somehow relevant to the sound an audio product creates to the point of it being “not recommended”! Crazy, right?!

Look. I’m advocating listening and blind tests not to show that one product sounds “better”, etc, or that measurements don’t matter (they DO!), but to simply validate that any issues that these measurements supposedly indicate are present can actually be heard by human ears. Simple. No rambling. No talking in circles. No BS.

G-Can and I have actually purchased the 3800. Are you a 3800 owner (i.e. did you put your money where your mouth is)?

 

[JBanville]

I have read a lot of audio reviews. Most are simply like marketing talk or rephrasing of marketing materials, repeating of manual info or total confabulation, based on ignorance. The only facts that I find in reviews are measurements. I don't remember reviews with listening test based on scientific foundations. I rarely see features test, that go further than obvious info from manual.

So as afar as it goes for audio review, Amir provides the essential information without additional BS.

It’s actually fairly simple. Set a known good piece of reference audio gear beside an unknown piece and LISTEN to each in a blind ABX test.

If you can’t hear a “problem”, is there a problem?

If a measurement that’s is considered poor/worse/etc can NOT be heard, WHY is it relevant to the quality of audio a piece of audio gear creates?

 

[JBanville]

G-Can and I have actually purchased the 3800. Are you a 3800 owner (i.e. did you put your money where your mouth is)?

What part about me saying I ordered it 2 days ago didn’t you understand?

 

[jhwalker]

Agreed. That’s why I was shocked when he said he didn’t recommend this AVR without even bothering to listen to it. That’s a pretty unique way to “review” a piece of AUDIO gear.
I’m all for measuring audio gear, but if you’re going to make a stink about some aspects of the measurements, it should correlate to something AUDIBLE. What’s the point if you can’t hear it?

MOST of the audio equipment currently available (especially DACs) are measurably transparent (i.e., any deviations from "perfect" are provably inaudible). So should we just stop measuring them and say, "it's all good"?

In my view, we should still reward equipment that is closer to "perfect" and the only way to do that is to call out deviations from it, even IF they may be inaudible.