Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review

[remix84]

Thanks for your reply.
That's not an overheating issue, because the first time it happened, it was after 2min maybe once powered on.

Second time here, it was only after 30s maybe. Powered on, kodi, movie play, and shut-down right away, at low volume.

Yes, both times was a fast blinking, as manual said, around 0.25/0.5s.


I remember that I could reach the Protection History Procedure the first time, receiver remained ON, but I did it to check the impedance setting, not the protection reason ...

This time, I tried again as I've seen on the topic this procedure, but the receiver does not stay ON neither. It reaches the current input name, then goes to fast blinking again (I hear the fan when I do this, when I don't on normal start).

For sure, that's not a temperature issue, there are no obstacles around the receiver, fully opened place, and around 20° only.

To prevent this issue, is it helping to set the RP8000F at 80Hz only ? Unless I use the pre-out with a preamp for them

 

[peng]

Thanks for your reply.
That's not an overheating issue, because the first time it happened, it was after 2min maybe once powered on.

Second time here, it was only after 30s maybe. Powered on, kodi, movie play, and shut-down right away, at low volume.

Yes, both times was a fast blinking, as manual said, around 0.25/0.5s.


I remember that I could reach the Protection History Procedure the first time, receiver remained ON, but I did it to check the impedance setting, not the protection reason ...

This time, I tried again as I've seen on the topic this procedure, but the receiver does not stay ON neither. It reaches the current input name, then goes to fast blinking again (I hear the fan when I do this, when I don't on normal start).

For sure, that's not a temperature issue, there are no obstacles around the receiver, fully opened place, and around 20° only.

To prevent this issue, is it helping to set the RP8000F at 80Hz only ? Unless I use the pre-out with a preamp for them

Well then I guess you know better because you were there.. I simply quoted what the fault code says, that is ASO or DC so as far as the AVR's processor is concerned it was either "thermal" that is heat issue, a short circuit at the output or DC so if the unit was cool at the time then it could have been DC.

Can you rule out the possibility that if you have been using the unit at volume as high as 80 frequent enough, that the output devices might have deteriorated to the point while they were still working, but might have become prone to fail even after a couple min after it gets powered up? In other word, those weakened transistors were ready to fail prior, just a matter of time?

By the way you mentioned "I hear the fan when I do this, when I don't on normal start", so you meant you could hear the internal fan(s) running?
If that's the case then that's another sign the unit could in fact be overheating. I have never hear my AVR's fan running, not even when I thought the top of the unit was warm to the touch. Or if you are so sure heat wasn't the issue, then may be the thermal sensing part isn't functioning correctly.

As to the crossover for the RP8000F, if your subwoofers can do a better job, then I would say yes 80 Hz will be better.

 

[remix84]

Well then I guess you know better because you were there.. I simply quoted what the fault code says, that is ASO or DC so as far as the AVR's processor is concerned it was either "thermal" that is heat issue, or DC so if the unit was cool at the time then it could have been DC.

Can you rule out the possibility that if you have been using the unit at volume as high as 80 frequent enough, that the output devices might have deteriorated to the point while they were still working, but might have become prone to fail even after a couple min after it gets powered up? In other word, those weakened transistors were ready to fail prior, just a matter of time?

By the way you mentioned "I hear the fan when I do this, when I don't on normal start", so you meant you could hear the internal fan(s) running?
If that's the case then that's another sign the unit could in fact be overheating. I have never hear my AVR's fan running, not even when I thought the top of the unit was warm to the touch. Or if you are so sure heat wasn't the issue, then may be the thermal sensing part isn't functioning correctly.

As to the crossover for the RP8000F, if your subwoofers can do a better job, then I would say yes 80 Hz will be better.

Cannot be thermal as the receiver was ON for a couple of minutes.

That was the only time where the receiver was set at so high volume. I could not think that an electronic can be weakened but only ON/OFF thats all. If you confirm this weakness, that could explain why it happened again then.

About the fan, I did not hear it at all anytime even after running several hours. But when I try to run the protection procedure by holding "dimmer" and "zone2 status", I hear the fan starting. The receiver stays ON a couple of seconds then turns off.

I took a look to your links about calculator. I'm pretty beginner and cannot fully understand the fields and results.

Here is my config :
Denon X3600H (105w 8ohms 2ch drive - 600w power consumption)
RP8000F (150w 98dB 8ohms)
RP504C (150w 97dB 8ohms)
RP502S (100w 95dB 8ohms)
SPL-150

From Audyssey
Front L 3.85m -6.0dB
Front R 3.85m -7.5dB
Central 3.38m -7.5dB
Surround L 2.11m -9.0dB
Surround R 2.07m -8.5dB
Sub 5.23m +1.0dB

 

[remix84]

Additional questions :

- Can adjusting the impedance lower than 8ohms protect the receiver (like 6 or even 4ohms) with such speakers, or it's a bad idea ?

- Does it play a big role in the protection to power the receiver with the correct phase "way" ?

- Looking at the repair video linked above on X4300, I found the faulty transistors and resistances. I've ordered them and waiting for delivery. However, I see that the guy sets the "bias" current to 8mV for each transistors following the manual service, but I don't know the value for the X3600H. Any chance to get it somewhere, or even the manual ?

 

[peng]

Cannot be thermal as the receiver was ON for a couple of minutes.

That was the only time where the receiver was set at so high volume. I could not think that an electronic can be weakened but only ON/OFF thats all. If you confirm this weakness, that could explain why it happened again then.

About the fan, I did not hear it at all anytime even after running several hours. But when I try to run the protection procedure by holding "dimmer" and "zone2 status", I hear the fan starting. The receiver stays ON a couple of seconds then turns off.

I took a look to your links about calculator. I'm pretty beginner and cannot fully understand the fields and results.

Here is my config :
Denon X3600H (105w 8ohms 2ch drive - 600w power consumption)
RP8000F (150w 98dB 8ohms)
RP504C (150w 97dB 8ohms)
RP502S (100w 95dB 8ohms)
SPL-150

From Audyssey
Front L 3.85m -6.0dB
Front R 3.85m -7.5dB
Central 3.38m -7.5dB
Surround L 2.11m -9.0dB
Surround R 2.07m -8.5dB
Sub 5.23m +1.0dB

I agree with you that a power transistor itself doesn't really get "weakened", and would either be working normally, or not (i.e. open or short). It may still be possible that there was a minor and/or gradually developing fault (prior to the incident) somewhere within the power amp circuitry, and that eventually caused the output transistor(s) to fail open or short. That may be highly unlikely but I don't think it can be ruled out completely either.

On the thermal overload protection part, it was my typo (already edited to avoid confusing others), as I have already stated before in post#961 that the fast blinking (.25 intervals) LED, would indicate an ASO or DC fault, and ASO means a short circuit, not thermal. Keep in mind that such protective schemes are not bullet proof in protecting the AVR from failures especially for failures resulted from certain parts that may gradually deteriorate over time from high than normal temperatures. That's why imo, in many cases, it is better to use an external fan regardless.

According to Denon:

Below is the result from using the Crown audio calculator:

I entered 92.1 dB for sensitivity because that's verified in a actual test by Audioholics.

Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speaker Review

The Klipsch RP-8000F, a dual 8" woofer tower speaker system that promises a wide dynamic range for lots of punch and impact, but will that come at the cost? Read our review to find out...

www.audioholics.com

Please note the reviewer's comments as follow:

What helps to make the RP-8000F an easier load than many other speakers is its above average sensitivity. I measured its sensitivity as 92.1 dB for 2.83v at 1 meter. That isn’t bad; it’s better than most speakers in this type and price class. However, it is significantly below what Klipsch specifies for it which is 98 dB for 2.83v at 1 meter. That is quadruple the sensitivity that I measured. Klipsch is using an in-room estimation of sensitivity that factors in a quarter-space environment over a greater distance. It is true that the in-room sensitivity would be increased, but I think that should be stated in their specs if that is their reasoning for their sensitivity rating. We've seen this discrepancy in other Klipsch products so it doesn't seem to be a statistical outlier in how the brand rates sensitivity of their products.

Since you did run Audyssey, volume at 80 should give you reference level from the mlp regardless. That means the estimated actual power output from the AVR would be 289 W from the front left and/or right speaker (s). It would likely be a little higher than that because the RP8000F is not really truly 8 ohm nominal as you can see from the impedance curve in the AH review.

Edit: Note the 105 dB spl is to allow for the peaks in "THX" movies. If you remove the 20 dB peak allowed, for 85 dB the estimated power requirement based on the Crown calculator would be 2.9 W and that's without allowing for any room gain. So my initial concern would seem unfounded.

 

[peng]

Additional questions :

- Can adjusting the impedance lower than 8ohms protect the receiver (like 6 or even 4ohms) with such speakers, or it's a bad idea ?

- Does it play a big role in the protection to power the receiver with the correct phase "way" ?

- Looking at the repair video linked above on X4300, I found the faulty transistors and resistances. I've ordered them and waiting for delivery. However, I see that the guy sets the "bias" current to 8mV for each transistors following the manual service, but I don't know the value for the X3600H. Any chance to get it somewhere, or even the manual ?

If you follow Gene's advice on Audioholic.com you would not do it because if you use the 6 or 4 ohms settings the AVR will lower the rail voltage and that would limit the rated output. He mentioned it more than once in his recent youtube video reviews, and there is a detailed article on their website:

Setting the A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch

This article explores the purpose and function of the impedance switch found on some A/V receivers. Tradeoffs of following manufacturers recommended settings are also discussed. YouTube video inside.

www.audioholics.com

To get the information on the bia current, you would have to order the service manual because the owner's manual usually don't provide such information. They are probably all around 8 mV +/- 0.5 mV DC within 2 minutes but I can't be sure. I know it is for the SR6014 that has the same power amp section as the AVR-X3600H. Are you sure the unit is really out of warranty? If it was repair once not long ago, they may be willing to give it a warranty on the repair, it doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[remix84]

I agree with you that a power transistor itself doesn't really get "weakened", and would either be working normally, or not (i.e. open or short). It may still be possible that there was a minor and/or gradually developing fault (prior to the incident) somewhere within the power amp circuitry, and that eventually caused the output transistor(s) to fail open or short. That may be highly unlikely but I don't think it can be ruled out completely either.

On the thermal overload protection part, it was my typo (already edited to avoid confusing others), as I have already stated before in post#961 that the fast blinking (.25 intervals) LED, would indicate an ASO or DC fault, and ASO means a short circuit, not thermal. Keep in mind that such protective schemes are not bullet proof in protecting the AVR from failures especially for failures resulted from certain parts that may gradually deteriorate over time from high than normal temperatures. That's why imo, in many cases, it is better to use an external fan regardless.

According to Denon:

View attachment 179738

Below is the result from using the Crown audio calculator:

I entered 92.1 dB for sensitivity because that's verified in a actual test by Audioholics.

Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speaker Review

The Klipsch RP-8000F, a dual 8" woofer tower speaker system that promises a wide dynamic range for lots of punch and impact, but will that come at the cost? Read our review to find out...

www.audioholics.com

Please note the reviewer's comments as follow:



Since you did run Audyssey, volume at 80 should give you reference level from the mlp regardless. That means the estimated actual power output from the AVR would be 289 W from the front left and/or right speaker (s). It would likely be a little higher than that because the RP8000F is not really truly 8 ohm nominal as you can see from the impedance curve in the AH review.

View attachment 179741

From what I understand, ASO would mean a short due to bad cable connection anywhere, or from the speaker itself which is uncommon I guess (how do we test this by the way ?), and DC would occur when the speaker is too demanding (lowest impedance case or high volume).

Once the receiver is repaired, I will try the protection procedure again to see the code if the history is kept.

About the required amplifier power you calculate, does it correspond to a single speaker ? Means I should have 2x289w vs X3600h spec's at 2x105w which is far inferior ? And even less with surround and central speakers. Or I'm misunderstanding it.

If you follow Gene's advice on Audioholic.com you would not do it because if you use the 6 or 4 ohms settings the AVR will lower the rail voltage and that would limit the rated output. He mentioned it more than once in his recent youtube video reviews, and there is a detailed article on their website:

Setting the A/V Receiver Impedance Selector Switch

This article explores the purpose and function of the impedance switch found on some A/V receivers. Tradeoffs of following manufacturers recommended settings are also discussed. YouTube video inside.

www.audioholics.com

To get the information on the bia current, you would have to order the service manual because the owner's manual usually don't provide such information. They are probably all around 8 mV +/- 0.5 mV DC within 2 minutes but I can't be sure. I know it is for the SR6014 that has the same power amp section as the AVR-X3600H. Are you sure the unit is really out of warranty? If it was repair once not long ago, they may be willing to give it a warranty on the repair, it doesn't hurt to ask.

Thanks for the video, I'll take a look to understand.

I found only the manual here : https://serviceandrepair.sellfy.store/p/urrote/
Do you know this website if it's trustable ? That would be safer to get it for the value yes, and even from where do I set the bias for each amp.

I'm the second owner, in the third year. I called Denon and they say that the original buyer did not register the receiver to get the third warranty year. But the guy forwarded my request to Denon's headquarter and explained the issue (that already happened - they should find the first ticket with my serial number), but he could not confirm that they would accept.

Instead to wait for nothing, I took a look myself, and my father knows well electronic stuff, and found immediately faulty transistors.
I said to him that it has already happened, but he could not see any welds repaired by hand on the circuit board. So he assumed that the first time, they replaced the entire card instead of few transistors.

2-3 weeks for shipping delivery from China for a couple of dollars

 

[peng]

From what I understand, ASO would mean a short due to bad cable connection anywhere, or from the speaker itself which is uncommon I guess (how do we test this by the way ?), and DC would occur when the speaker is too demanding (lowest impedance case or high volume).

Once the receiver is repaired, I will try the protection procedure again to see the code if the history is kept.

About the required amplifier power you calculate, does it correspond to a single speaker ? Means I should have 2x289w vs X3600h spec's at 2x105w which is far inferior ? And even less with surround and central speakers. Or I'm misunderstanding it.



Thanks for the video, I'll take a look to understand.

I found only the manual here : https://serviceandrepair.sellfy.store/p/urrote/
Do you know this website if it's trustable ? That would be safer to get it for the value yes, and even from where do I set the bias for each amp.

I'm the second owner, in the third year. I called Denon and they say that the original buyer did not register the receiver to get the third warranty year. But the guy forwarded my request to Denon's headquarter and explained the issue (that already happened - they should find the first ticket with my serial number), but he could not confirm that they would accept.

Instead to wait for nothing, I took a look myself, and my father knows well electronic stuff, and found immediately faulty transistors.
I said to him that it has already happened, but he could not see any welds repaired by hand on the circuit board. So he assumed that the first time, they replaced the entire card instead of few transistors.

2-3 weeks for shipping delivery from China for a couple of dollars

It looks legit.

For the SR6014's service manual, the pots for the adjustments are the VR714 and VR724 for the front L and front R, VR734 for center and so forth through VR794 to cover all 9 channels. You can take a look of the amp board and see if you could identify and access those pots first before ordering the SM, its via download anyway so that is no lead time.

I think replacing the whole board is a safe bet because there is a reason why the output transistor failed. As you can see from the power requirement calculator, even at volume 80, it really not overloading the AVR except during those 10 to 20 dB peaks. At 85 dB average SPL, the power required would just be about 2.7 W for the front left and right channels. The calculator simply shows the AVR will clip during the peaks.

May be I should edit the post to make a note of that..

It is a good thing you provided the level trim settings. The fact that Audyssey had the front L/R set to -6 and -7.5 dB, indicates that 80 post Audyssey would be like 74 and 72.5 prior to running Audyssey. So it really isn't that bad, other than I hope you don't make it a habit to listen to such high level too often if you don't want to risk any hearing loss down the road.

 

[remix84]

It looks legit.

For the SR6014's service manual, the pots for the adjustments are the VR714 and VR724 for the front L and front R, VR734 for center and so forth through VR794 to cover all 9 channels. You can take a look of the amp board and see if you could identify and access those pots first before ordering the SM, its via download anyway so that is no lead time.

I think replacing the whole board is a safe bet because there is a reason why the output transistor failed. As you can see from the power requirement calculator, even at volume 80, it really not overloading the AVR except during those 10 to 20 dB peaks. At 85 dB average SPL, the power required would just be about 2.7 W for the front left and right channels. The calculator simply shows the AVR will clip during the peaks.

May be I should edit the post to make a note of that..

It is a good thing you provided the level trim settings. The fact that Audyssey had the front L/R set to -6 and -7.5 dB, indicates that 80 post Audyssey would be like 74 and 72.5 prior to running Audyssey. So it really isn't that bad, other than I hope you don't make it a habit to listen to such high level too often if you don't want to risk any hearing loss down the road.

Thanks for pots identification ! And all above information, very useful.

Ok, I understood the calculator and its values. So normally this X3600H should handle easily my Klipsch set as you said. I'm watching movies most of the time, and volume is set between 55 and 65, so -20dB, even -27.5dB with Audyssey.

I'll update the status anyway once I got news from Denon, or transistors received. I just need to find the cause, to avoid it a third time.
Check again cables, I'll add maybe banana connectors too. And set 80hz in Audyssey instead of 40hz to ease the receiver. Why not to monitor my power line too, if any surge protector could prevent the issue.

 

[Bear123]

I agree with you that a power transistor itself doesn't really get "weakened", and would either be working normally, or not (i.e. open or short). It may still be possible that there was a minor and/or gradually developing fault (prior to the incident) somewhere within the power amp circuitry, and that eventually caused the output transistor(s) to fail open or short. That may be highly unlikely but I don't think it can be ruled out completely either.

On the thermal overload protection part, it was my typo (already edited to avoid confusing others), as I have already stated before in post#961 that the fast blinking (.25 intervals) LED, would indicate an ASO or DC fault, and ASO means a short circuit, not thermal. Keep in mind that such protective schemes are not bullet proof in protecting the AVR from failures especially for failures resulted from certain parts that may gradually deteriorate over time from high than normal temperatures. That's why imo, in many cases, it is better to use an external fan regardless.

According to Denon:

View attachment 179738

Below is the result from using the Crown audio calculator:

I entered 92.1 dB for sensitivity because that's verified in a actual test by Audioholics.

Klipsch RP-8000F Tower Speaker Review

The Klipsch RP-8000F, a dual 8" woofer tower speaker system that promises a wide dynamic range for lots of punch and impact, but will that come at the cost? Read our review to find out...

www.audioholics.com

Please note the reviewer's comments as follow:



Since you did run Audyssey, volume at 80 should give you reference level from the mlp regardless. That means the estimated actual power output from the AVR would be 289 W from the front left and/or right speaker (s). It would likely be a little higher than that because the RP8000F is not really truly 8 ohm nominal as you can see from the impedance curve in the AH review.

Edit: Note the 105 dB spl is to allow for the peaks in "THX" movies. If you remove the 20 dB peak allowed, for 85 dB the estimated power requirement based on the Crown calculator would be 2.9 W and that's without allowing for any room gain. So my initial concern would seem unfounded.

View attachment 179741

Remember that if Audyseey was run on speakers crossed at 40 Hz, or even 80 Hz, there will be *at least* 3-6 db of boost applied below 300 Hz. This will of course double or quadruple power requirement so reference level listening is actually calling for 3-6 dB above reference once eq is factored in.

 

[peng]

Remember that if Audyseey was run on speakers crossed at 40 Hz, or even 80 Hz, there will be *at least* 3-6 db of boost applied below 300 Hz. This will of course double or quadruple power requirement so reference level listening is actually calling for 3-6 dB above reference once eq is factored in.

I have to think about that one but it sounds logical to me. That would be another reason for the OP to change the crossover to 80 Hz and use an external fan regardless if he wants his AVR to last for many more years.

 

[AudioLover73]

I'm shopping around the new and used market, but right now Emotiva's BasX A-300 is looking compelling at $399 and 300 watts rms into 4 ohms

Curious what you ended up doing. Did you find an amp that solved your problem?

 

[rccarguy]

Curious what you ended up doing. Did you find an amp that solved your problem?

That amp isn't 300w "proper output"

Power Output (both channels driven):
150 watts RMS per channel; 20 Hz – 20 kHz; THD < 0.1%; into 8 Ohms.
300 watts RMS per channel; 1 kHz; THD < 1%; into 4 Ohms.

 

[rccarguy]

Are you referring to the more relaxed distortion/frequency figures?

Yeah. Pretty much meaningless and misleading to those who don't know any better

My system is probably 40,000W PMPO

 

[AudioLover73]

Yeah. Pretty much meaningless and misleading to those who don't know any better

My system is probably 40,000W PMPO

I wouldn't say they're misleading anywhere near to that degree. In the grand scheme of things, a person would not be able to hear a difference between an amp rated at 0.1% at 20-20k vs one at 1% at 1k. What is that, like a ~1 dB difference in power? The important thing is that they stated the frequency range and distortion, though for people that are into specifications, it might do them better to underrate the 8 ohm output so that their amp looks like it's doubling its output into 4 ohms, but that's not their target audience.

 

[rccarguy]

I wouldn't say they're misleading to that degree. In the grand scheme of things, a person would not be able to hear a difference between an amp rated at 0.1% at 20-20k vs one at 1% at 1k. What is that, like a 1 dB difference in power? The important thing is that they stated the frequency range and distortion.

It's about having apples to apples. Aiwa used to advertise into 6ohm, pmpo with 10% thd.

Everyone should stick to FTC testing.

 

[AudioLover73]

It's about having apples to apples. Aiwa used to advertise into 6ohm, pmpo with 10% thd.

Everyone should stick to FTC testing.

How's CEA-2006?

In Aiwa's defense, at least they did specify the THD at which the power was measured, however that's far from a PMPO rating. A PMPO rating is what you'd find on 5W computer speakers claiming 500 watts PMPO, a completely useless rating.

But yes, I do agree that there should be some standard so that fewer are mislead, though I've read that coming up with a standard that everyone agrees with is incredibly difficult, if not impossible.

 

[WinWiz]

Any reason the x4400h would measure considerably worse than this x3600h ?
I ask because I need a 9.2 avr with 11.2 preouts and new denons like the x3700h cost more than I want to pay for any avr. The new denons also have inferior ti days.
My current avr is an old yamaha rx-v667 that have served me nicely for many years, but I upgrading with atmos height speakers so need additional channels.
So I found a used x4400h in mint condition on ebay. So I want to know if the x4400h is a decent avr?
I don't really care about video features.

 

[AudioLover73]

I seriously doubt that anyone can actually hear a difference between any of these receivers. I have a X3600H, two X3300Ws, an SR6011 and two SR7011s. They're all the same to me. I challenge anyone to hear a difference in a blind listening test.

Any reason the x4400h would measure considerably worse than this x3600h ?
I ask because I need a 9.2 avr with 11.2 preouts and new denons like the x3700h cost more than I want to pay for any avr. The new denons also have inferior ti days.
My current avr is an old yamaha rx-v667 that have served me nicely for many years, but I upgrading with atmos height speakers so need additional channels.
So I found a used x4400h in mint condition on ebay. So I want to know if the x4400h is a decent avr?
I don't really care about video features.

 

[FrantzM]

Any reason the x4400h would measure considerably worse than this x3600h ?
I ask because I need a 9.2 avr with 11.2 preouts and new denons like the x3700h cost more than I want to pay for any avr. The new denons also have inferior ti days.
My current avr is an old yamaha rx-v667 that have served me nicely for many years, but I upgrading with atmos height speakers so need additional channels.
So I found a used x4400h in mint condition on ebay. So I want to know if the x4400h is a decent avr?
I don't really care about video features.

FWIW

Not a direct reply to your query. I have its « little » brother, the X-3400H I am extremely pleased with it, I also don’t care, much, about video features. The 3400 has Atmos, supports almost all the new audio codecs , save for Auro. It’s also reasonably powerful. I don’t know how it would measure but have come to terms with the fact ghat any SINAD above 80 dB is audibly transparent (perhaps even lower, considering that any LP-based audio system cannot go past 65 db of SINAD ….). I find the X3400H audibly transparent and it does everything I need.
If the price is right, get the X4400H and be happy.

Peace.