Oh, I wasn't referencing the numbers from ASR testing at all. I was just saying hypothetically that even if the other AVRs had 20-30 more watts per channel...
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Denon AVR-X3600H AV Receiver Review
- Thread starter amirm
- Start date
They don't have many options, wel the HK had none, the Denon bhad a few like eq and night mode. They were old decoders, used with Dolby Pro logic amplfiiers.
I just thought the Denon sounded "thin"
I use the Denon AVR-X3600H and really happy with it. Just curious what the SINAD would be when you use analog input and pre-out to power amp (Rotel RMB-1095).
I have a Topping E30 DAC connected to it and also really happy with this, but would I gain any quality if I upgraded my DAC to say Topping E50, that performs a little bit better on paper or is my Denon AVR-x3600H still the bottleneck here without mentioning the speakers?
I have a Topping E30 DAC connected to it and also really happy with this, but would I gain any quality if I upgraded my DAC to say Topping E50, that performs a little bit better on paper or is my Denon AVR-x3600H still the bottleneck here without mentioning the speakers?
I think the key phrase here is "on paper". Comparing the test results of the E30 vs. the E50 you're technically correct, the E50 performs marginally better. But at this level of performance for both DACs that slight difference is not going to be audible. The only advantages of the E50 over the E30 I would see are:
- the E50 has balanced outs.
- the E50 has one filter that rolls off at about 22.05 kHz, if that sort of thing is important to you.
Bear123
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Don't think you would hear any difference between the X3600's internal DAC's, the E50, or the E30, if you didn't know which was playing.
I can't believe I just found this wonderfully helpful thread. I have two questions, one I can't decipher from previous responses, and a second that I don't think has been answered.
My set up is Roon on my PC > wired ethernet > microrendu streamer > SMSL SU-9 DAC > x3600 (via CD input) > Schiit Vidar (waiting for arrival of this) > Wharfedale Dentons. I have the x3600 running 5.1 plus a zone 2. I have ordered a Schiit Vidar to use as an external amp to power my Wharfedale Lintons, which I am using as the fronts. Mainly this is a home theater set up, but with my new Lintons I greatly enjoy using them for two channel listening, so I am looking to make sure they are getting fed the best sound possible in that configuration.
Question 1: With the external DAC into CD input, I believe I am bypassing the x3600 DAC in stereo mode. If this is the case, do I even need to utilize the 11.1 channel "hack" to get the upgraded sound discussed?
Question 2: If I do apply the 11.1 channel "hack" when the Schiit arrives, it appears that I will lose the zone 2 ability unless I use the Zone 2 pre-out (line out?) and have to purchase an additional external amp? My Zone 2 is only some outdoor speakers on the porch. I typically use them completely solo (ie not using Zone 1 speakers), and I would never need the ability to play something different out there. So, could I connect the Zone 2 speakers to one of the speaker outputs not in use with the 11.1 channel setting described in this thread, and set them up to play solo? Or should I just throw in the towel and get a cheap integrated amp to drive my outdoor speakers separately, which would of course also mean I can't play them in sync with the Zone 1 speakers for the occasional party?
I did note some discussions of moving the external DAC between the x3600 and external amp, but I don't think that would work for me. I need to keep the streamer/external DAC combo in front of the x3600 because 1) otherwise Roon will only connect to x3600 using Airplay 2, and also will not group with other zones, 2) SMSL SU-9 has no analog input or HT bypass, and 3) I occasionally like to play multichannel, which taxes the x3600 and is one of the main reasons for the external amp in the first place.
My set up is Roon on my PC > wired ethernet > microrendu streamer > SMSL SU-9 DAC > x3600 (via CD input) > Schiit Vidar (waiting for arrival of this) > Wharfedale Dentons. I have the x3600 running 5.1 plus a zone 2. I have ordered a Schiit Vidar to use as an external amp to power my Wharfedale Lintons, which I am using as the fronts. Mainly this is a home theater set up, but with my new Lintons I greatly enjoy using them for two channel listening, so I am looking to make sure they are getting fed the best sound possible in that configuration.
Question 1: With the external DAC into CD input, I believe I am bypassing the x3600 DAC in stereo mode. If this is the case, do I even need to utilize the 11.1 channel "hack" to get the upgraded sound discussed?
Question 2: If I do apply the 11.1 channel "hack" when the Schiit arrives, it appears that I will lose the zone 2 ability unless I use the Zone 2 pre-out (line out?) and have to purchase an additional external amp? My Zone 2 is only some outdoor speakers on the porch. I typically use them completely solo (ie not using Zone 1 speakers), and I would never need the ability to play something different out there. So, could I connect the Zone 2 speakers to one of the speaker outputs not in use with the 11.1 channel setting described in this thread, and set them up to play solo? Or should I just throw in the towel and get a cheap integrated amp to drive my outdoor speakers separately, which would of course also mean I can't play them in sync with the Zone 1 speakers for the occasional party?
I did note some discussions of moving the external DAC between the x3600 and external amp, but I don't think that would work for me. I need to keep the streamer/external DAC combo in front of the x3600 because 1) otherwise Roon will only connect to x3600 using Airplay 2, and also will not group with other zones, 2) SMSL SU-9 has no analog input or HT bypass, and 3) I occasionally like to play multichannel, which taxes the x3600 and is one of the main reasons for the external amp in the first place.
The Linton is rated 6 ohm nominal so to be on the safe side we can assume it is 4 ohm nominal. According to measurements by Stereophile, sensitivity was about 88 db/2.83V/1m. If Stereophile is right, Wharfedale's claimed 90 dB/2V/1m is ridiculously exaggerated (to the nth degree). Better safe than sorry, I would suggest we assume Stereophile is right, that it's sensitivity is more like 88 dB/2.83V/1m.
With this assumption, we can then take a look of your Q1 and Q2.
Q1: You can connect your external DAC to any of the analog inputs, it does not have to be CD. If you want to be sure the signal would bypass the AVR's ADC and DAC, you should use direct mode or pure direct mode. However, base on Amir's tests, you can use stereo mode as well, and it would still bypass the ADC/DSP/DAC as long as you don't use any signal processing including Audyssey, or even bass management. Again, to be sure, I would suggest you use direct/pure direct mode. Some people would prefer to have Audyssey on so in that case the signal will be routed to the ADC/DSP/DAC path for sure.
The 11.1 "hack" is only going to make a difference if you know the pre out voltage will exceed 1.4 to 1.5 V, otherwise from sound quality standpoint there would be no difference, not even a theoretical difference.
In order to find out if you need the pre out higher than 1.4 to 1.5 V, you will have to do some calculations. You can do a quick and dirty estimate with an online calculator. The input to such calculators are typically your desired maximum SPL, MLP distance and the speaker's sensitivity. For sensitivity, as mentioned above, it was measured to be 88.1 dB/2.83V/1m. That means if the online calculator you pick is based on 8 ohm nominal, you should enter 85, or may be 86 dB for the Linton.
The calculator will give you an idea of how much power "Watts" you would need, and then you can use that information to calculate the pre out voltage.
To do an even quicker and dirtier estimate, I would just consider the following:
Vidar specs:
Power output: 100 W 8 ohm, 200 W 4 ohm
Gain: 27 dB
So you only need 1.26 V pre out voltage to drive the amp to its rated output. If you look at the SINAD vs Pre out voltage curve, SINAD did not drop below 100 dB at 1.4 V without the internal power amp disconnected.
Based on that, I highly doubt the 11.1 amp assign pre out to front would make any difference.
Q2: This no longer applies if you are not going to be using 11.1 to assign the front to pre out.
By the way, 5 or 7 channel stereo don't always "tax" the AVR much more (if at all..) than 2 channel stereo because as soon as you go from 2 ch stereo to 7 ch stereo, you may have to turn to volume down a few notch due to having 5 more speakers playing. If you don't turn it down then yes you would tax the AVR more.
Why a cheap integrated amp, why not just a cheap power amp? Cheap integrated amps won't typically give you any more power than you AVR anyway, but a cheap power amp may. If you do want to go the cheap integrated route, you may want to consider something like the SMSL's class D:
Wow, thanks. Did not realize that Question 1 got into the weeds like that, but I will study and learn hopefully.
As for "taxing" the amp, I am using my older Wharfedale Dentons (low efficiency) as my surround speakers, but when I go multi-channel using just them and the Lintons, the amp got exceedingly hot, even with my AC Infinity exhaust fan, at loud but not outrageous levels. I did have the x3600 set for 4 ohms because the Dentons used to be my fronts, but after reading about how that is problematic, reset to 8 ohms. I will try the multichannel again at that setting, and see how things go.
I was only contemplating an integrated amp if I could not create a zone 2 and would have to separate entirely from my AVR system. I am expecting the x3600 to have plenty of juice to drive everything once I relieve it from handling the front two speakers.
Thanks again.
As I mentioned, if you don't back off the volume when switching from 2 to 5 or 7 channel stereo, then yes you will tax the AVR more, much more. The Denton and Linton speakers have nominal impedance below 8 ohms, more like 4 to 6 ohms, and may have some bad combinations of below 6 ohms and large phase angles at certain frequencies. I seem to remember a combination of 5 ohm and -46 degrees. So if you listen loud enough the AVR will get hot for sure.
Regardless, your listening habits have a lot to do with whether you need an external power amp, and how much power you actually need.
From 100 W into 4 ohms to 200 W into 4 ohms, you will only gain 3 dB, the increase in loudness would be like going from volume -16 to -13 (assuming the amp is not maxed out). Conversely, if you turn the volume down by 3 dB and then you don't need the 200 W amp for the same spl. Your seating distance is also a significant factor because every time you doubt the distance you lose 6 dB (ignoring the room gain effects), that would be equivalent to going from a 400 W amp to a 100 W amp.
The Vidar amp will take some load off the AVR but in terms of the power or rather, current, for the Lintons, it doesn't really make a lot of difference, may be 1 to 1.5 dB at the most. The Denton and Lintons are not easy to drive in relative sense only, in absolute sense they don't need or rather, can't take a lot of power anyway In fact, the manufacturer recommended something like 25 to 120 W, that's not a lot..
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This didn't age well
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Well, it was a good hope, at least!
I read somewhere of someone who sold his used x3600 for $1100? They had already obtained their upgraded AVR, so it was a very fruitful transition.
Aside from the lack of HDMI 2.1, mostly only needed (for now) if you want to go through the AVR for the latest gen gaming systems, I'm not seeing much reason to upgrade.
Aside from the lack of HDMI 2.1, mostly only needed (for now) if you want to go through the AVR for the latest gen gaming systems, I'm not seeing much reason to upgrade.
I just paid $950 mint used after looking around for a few weeks. Tried a 760h from Costco first, brilliant unit for most of my needs but no pre-out.
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That feature would seem to be a very logical capability to include in any AVR with pre-outs. It can't be that difficult to implement.
Maybe, maybe not.
Remember that everything has a cost attached to it and this Denon is near the bottom of their AVR priceing stucture- lineup.
As you move up in cost every conceivable switching option can be included when you get to X cost level.
It would take most of us about a month just to read the manual and understand the switching and routeing options of a Trinnov processor.
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Also, does it really add much? If there is no load there is no current anyway.Maybe, maybe not.
Remember that everything has a cost attached to it and this Denon is near the bottom of their AVR priceing stucture- lineup.
As you move up in cost every conceivable switching option can be included when you get to X cost level.
It would take most of us about a month just to read the manual and understand the switching and routeing options of a Trinnov processor.
Even if we ignore the better SINAD in preamp mode at higher output voltage (around 1.4 to 1.5 V), preamp mode allows the AVR to run cooler via the ECO mode without negatively impacting again, SINAD. It also helps lowering energy consumption too obviously.
Hi guys,
Maybe I could get support here.
I bought in July 2020 X3600H receiver, so far it worked perfectly. My audio system is a Klipsch 5.1
- RP-8000F (40Hz crossover SMALL)
- RP-504C (60Hz crossover SMALL)
- RP-502S (100Hz crossover SMALL)
- SPL-150 (120Hz LFE)
In November 2020, after listing music just a couple of minutes, maybe 2min, receiver stopped to work, and red light was blinking fast.
None of reset procedures worked, and I took it to repair center. Front left channel output blown-up, but I was surprised that any protection circuit would have saved the receiver. Maybe I set the volume too high this time, no idea (volume at 80).
Anyway, it came back, and worked perfectly again several month. But a couple of days ago ... I was starting to watch a movie, volume set only at 40... and here we go again after 10s only, red light blinking fast ... (same issue 14 months later).
What's going on ? I checked the first time all my wires, I did not change anything. Am I just unlucky, or something else is set wrong ? Crossover too low, and should be set at 80Hz ? Can it be the RP-8000F which are too demanding for the X3600H ? Like impendence are dropping to low ? I doubt but I try to understand, if it will happen again and again.
Why the protection does not work at all ?
I took a look inside myself this time, as I'm not sure it's still under warranty (third year, and original owner did not claim it on website) Waiting for Denon's reply.
I found 2 transistors, and 5 resistances blown-up, in the same way as this video :
But I cannot confirm which channel it is (if again the front left like the first time).
Thanks for any support
Maybe I could get support here.
I bought in July 2020 X3600H receiver, so far it worked perfectly. My audio system is a Klipsch 5.1
- RP-8000F (40Hz crossover SMALL)
- RP-504C (60Hz crossover SMALL)
- RP-502S (100Hz crossover SMALL)
- SPL-150 (120Hz LFE)
In November 2020, after listing music just a couple of minutes, maybe 2min, receiver stopped to work, and red light was blinking fast.
None of reset procedures worked, and I took it to repair center. Front left channel output blown-up, but I was surprised that any protection circuit would have saved the receiver. Maybe I set the volume too high this time, no idea (volume at 80).
Anyway, it came back, and worked perfectly again several month. But a couple of days ago ... I was starting to watch a movie, volume set only at 40... and here we go again after 10s only, red light blinking fast ... (same issue 14 months later).
What's going on ? I checked the first time all my wires, I did not change anything. Am I just unlucky, or something else is set wrong ? Crossover too low, and should be set at 80Hz ? Can it be the RP-8000F which are too demanding for the X3600H ? Like impendence are dropping to low ? I doubt but I try to understand, if it will happen again and again.
Why the protection does not work at all ?
I took a look inside myself this time, as I'm not sure it's still under warranty (third year, and original owner did not claim it on website) Waiting for Denon's reply.
I found 2 transistors, and 5 resistances blown-up, in the same way as this video :
Thanks for any support
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AVR's protection schemes do not always protect the unit from overheating due to overload, short circuit as it depends on the nature of the fault. The way the LED flashes could tell you which kind of the faults caused the shutdown but it is probably too late now if you have already unplugged the unit. You did say when it happened the light was blinking fast (if you mean around every 0.25 second), so the fault was likely ASO or DC, that is, a short circuit or DC output of the amplifier was abnormal, both could have been resulted from one or more blown output devices.
For the AVR-X3600H, you may be able to power it up and get it to display the fault using the following method, that I found and downloaded from somewhere, or someone posted on forum:
Protection History Procedure: Press and hold all listed buttons while powering the unit on / Using the down arrow key scroll to "2.Protection" and press ENTER / Unit will power cycle / When power cycle is complete press the STATUS button for the Protection code (Therm = Heat issue, ASO = Speaker or Impedance issue, DC = Voltage issue) / Power cycle the unit to return to normal operation.
ZONE 2 SOURCE / DIMMER / STATUS
The following could be displayed if you press the buttons above properly:
ASO - A short circuit occurred
DC - DC output of power amplifier is abnormal
Thermal E - Abnormal heat sink temperature.
Current - An over current current flow in power amp
In your case, I think it is quite likely that you have been listening at high level for too long, and/or the unit is placed where ventilation is not sufficient. Volume at 80 is clearly too high for those big RP8000F with crossover at 40 Hz (that's virtually the same as "large").
So the AVR might have been cooked slowly, and was ready to fail any time you turn the unit back on after your last use, or at any volume after.
If you have it repaired again, I would strongly suggest you use an online calculator to estimate you power need, and then take precautionary measures accordingly. At the minimum, I would put a fan or two or top or to blow air across the AVR.
Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers
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