Could recommend speakers suitable for extra-large spaces?

[GXAlan]

Wow, this looks great.Do you think the sound quality of Bluehorn is better than that of 8381?

Here’s the thing. Maybe yes, maybe no. Once you get to that level of performance, many speakers work well.

But no microphone is perfectly linear. What is the true sound of a lightsaber? By using the same speakers that the actual movie creators are using, you have the best chance for replicating the true intended sound.

@Andysu likes a lot of older movies. He used a full vintage JBL Cinema setup with cinema grade Dolby processors. This is exactly the reference sound you would have had in the heyday of THX Cinema. The Meyer Sound is what you get from the majority of modern productions. Many broadway shows use Meyer Sound too… so, if you liked the sound of Wicked live, that was on Meyer Sound.

Take the time to listen to this recording that was put out by JBL in the 1970s. Think of it like a TED talk.

The point here is that even in 1970, music is heavily modified from the recording and it’s even more of a manipulation in the present day.

So, Genelec, Alcons, Meyer Sound, JBL M2? All world-class. But if you live in the U.S., when push comes to shove, the Directors Guild of America had a shootout between JBL and Meyer Sound which led to Meyer Sound winning.

First Look: Directors Guild Unveils Renovated Theater With Help From Jon Favreau, Christopher Nolan and More

Just in time for awards season, the guild unveils a tech-forward, "optimally impactful" renovation led by an auteur dream team, which also included Michael Mann, Michael Apted, Shawn Levy and Betty Thomas.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Congrats on having the financial resources to build a dream setup.

The Director’s Guild of America had the same position of building a dream theater. They got

Michael Mann
Michael Apted
Jon Favreau
Shawn Levy
Christopher Nolan
Betty Thomas

Together and ended up with Meyer Sound after a full on shootout with company representatives tuning the system.

And Skywalker Sound isn’t just Star Wars. Titanic, Avatar, etc.

I run Meyer Sound Amie’s which are the budget 2m listening distance model. I love them.

Meyer Sound Amie: First Impressions

Yes, these are already en route to @amirm for a formal spin on the Klippel NFS. $8160/pair MSRP (Sept 2023) Manufacturer's Website Specifications Frequency Response 45 Hz – 20 kHz ± 4 dB Phase Response 190 Hz – 20 kHz ± 45° Linear Peak SPL 120.5 dB with 18.5 dB crest factor (M-noise)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[darth]

But if you live in the U.S., when push comes to shove, the Directors Guild of America had a shootout between JBL and Meyer Sound which led to Meyer Sound winning.

If tariffs get imposed on EU brands, this becomes even more important to remain in budget

 

[GXAlan]

If tariffs get imposed on EU brands, this becomes even more important to remain in budget

yes, and if you are buying this kind of gear, you will get a lot of discounts.

 

[Audio Science Pal]

I recommend Meyer Sound speakers.

 

[haerinnn]

Here’s the thing. Maybe yes, maybe no. Once you get to that level of performance, many speakers work well.

But no microphone is perfectly linear. What is the true sound of a lightsaber? By using the same speakers that the actual movie creators are using, you have the best chance for replicating the true intended sound.

@Andysu likes a lot of older movies. He used a full vintage JBL Cinema setup with cinema grade Dolby processors. This is exactly the reference sound you would have had in the heyday of THX Cinema. The Meyer Sound is what you get from the majority of modern productions. Many broadway shows use Meyer Sound too… so, if you liked the sound of Wicked live, that was on Meyer Sound.

Take the time to listen to this recording that was put out by JBL in the 1970s. Think of it like a TED talk.

The point here is that even in 1970, music is heavily modified from the recording and it’s even more of a manipulation in the present day.

So, Genelec, Alcons, Meyer Sound, JBL M2? All world-class. But if you live in the U.S., when push comes to shove, the Directors Guild of America had a shootout between JBL and Meyer Sound which led to Meyer Sound winning.

First Look: Directors Guild Unveils Renovated Theater With Help From Jon Favreau, Christopher Nolan and More

Just in time for awards season, the guild unveils a tech-forward, "optimally impactful" renovation led by an auteur dream team, which also included Michael Mann, Michael Apted, Shawn Levy and Betty Thomas.

www.hollywoodreporter.com

Congrats on having the financial resources to build a dream setup.

The Director’s Guild of America had the same position of building a dream theater. They got

Michael Mann
Michael Apted
Jon Favreau
Shawn Levy
Christopher Nolan
Betty Thomas

Together and ended up with Meyer Sound after a full on shootout with company representatives tuning the system.

And Skywalker Sound isn’t just Star Wars. Titanic, Avatar, etc.

I run Meyer Sound Amie’s which are the budget 2m listening distance model. I love them.

Meyer Sound Amie: First Impressions

Yes, these are already en route to @amirm for a formal spin on the Klippel NFS. $8160/pair MSRP (Sept 2023) Manufacturer's Website Specifications Frequency Response 45 Hz – 20 kHz ± 4 dB Phase Response 190 Hz – 20 kHz ± 45° Linear Peak SPL 120.5 dB with 18.5 dB crest factor (M-noise)...

www.audiosciencereview.com

So, does it mean that using Meyer can get the closest to the sound heard during Hollywood movie mixing? I still have a question. Why doesn't the Director’s Guild of America use Bluehorn? The Meyer speakers used by the Director’s Guild of America seem to be much larger than Bluehorn's. Is it because the sound pressure level of Bluehorn is insufficient? Also, I noticed that they use five speakers for LCR. My screen may be 8 - 9m long. Do I also need five speakers for LCR?

 

[darth]

Whatever you get you probably should also consider placements of center and how it interacts with the screen

 

[kemmler3D]

So, does it mean that using Meyer can get the closest to the sound heard during Hollywood movie mixing? I still have a question. Why doesn't the Director’s Guild of America use Bluehorn? The Meyer speakers used by the Director’s Guild of America seem to be much larger than Bluehorn's. Is it because the sound pressure level of Bluehorn is insufficient? Also, I noticed that they use five speakers for LCR. My screen may be 8 - 9m long. Do I also need five speakers for LCR?

For questions that are this specific to the space, and beyond, it might be worth working with a professional installer... I think per @GXAlan s points it's probably hard to go wrong with the Meyer stuff... The ideal playback setup is theoretically whatever they used to mix it in the first place. So hard to argue with that. As for implementation specifics, a consult with a pro might be a good idea.

 

[A Surfer]

So, does it mean that using Meyer can get the closest to the sound heard during Hollywood movie mixing? I still have a question. Why doesn't the Director’s Guild of America use Bluehorn? The Meyer speakers used by the Director’s Guild of America seem to be much larger than Bluehorn's. Is it because the sound pressure level of Bluehorn is insufficient? Also, I noticed that they use five speakers for LCR. My screen may be 8 - 9m long. Do I also need five speakers for LCR?

Be careful you don't gain all kinds of weight from spending every free moment of your life sitting in front of your screen.

 

[GXAlan]

So, does it mean that using Meyer can get the closest to the sound heard during Hollywood movie mixing?

100% if your movie was mixed at Skywalker Sound.

Projects

www.skysound.com

Or showcased at Netflix’s screening room

Netflix's L.A. Screening Room Features Sony Crystal LED and Robust Meyer Sound Audio System

A Netflix Screening Room in its L.A. headquarters is out of this world with Meyer Sound Ultra Reflex audio and Sony Pro Crystal LED video.

www.cepro.com

I still have a question. Why doesn't the Director’s Guild of America use Bluehorn?

The difference between the Bluehorn and Acheron is a newer compression driver and better electronics for phase linearity that goes down lower. It’s also a lot more expensive. @Mr. Widget may be able to offer more insight.

The Meyer speakers used by the Director’s Guild of America seem to be much larger than Bluehorn's.

The Bluehorn is two parts. 15” two way with a subwoofer.

Is it because the sound pressure level of Bluehorn is insufficient? Also, I noticed that they use five speakers for LCR. My screen may be 8 - 9m long. Do I also need five speakers for LCR?

That’s going to be a function of width and depth. If you have a big screen but you really are sitting off axis, it’s different than a big screen but you are not as wide.

 

[Looneybomber]

1… we should strive to achieve the best possible results.
Give priority to the sound quality at my seating position.

You should go listen to some high end home theaters or professional listening spaces. If you do have a 200k budget, use 5k of it to fly a few places to go visit some notable places.

You’re getting many recommendations for professional cinema speakers but they all sound bad to me. Perhaps you will like the sound of them. You won’t know until you get some listening experience.

Another alternative that gets loud is a line array using traditional dome tweeters or ribbon tweeters. Not many commercial options but they can be custom made if one so chooses.

 

[Chris A]

You need to talk to a pro cinema engineering guy. Based on what my ears have heard at local cinemas, I don't actually recommend what I've heard from JBL. Meyer may be a better choice due to their analysis capabilities.

My vote would actually go to Klipsch Pro - the larger fully horn loaded stacks (the Grandeur series) will handle the SPL with ease and will not sound harsh. The smaller direct-radiating woofers will sound more opaque and have a lot of impact, but will sound artificial. I recommend talking to Roy Delgado at Klipsch:

I'd also take a look at Danley Sound Labs--talk to Tom Danley to see what they may be able to do in smaller boxes. Their clarity of sound will be unsurpassed, and their subs will also fit into your space (tapped horns).

Chris

 

[Duke]

I have a very large plot of land in the countryside. I hope to build a private cinema from scratch, with a screen size of over 350 inches. The cinema is approximately 14 meters long and has a volume of around 700 cubic meters. I want to set up a surround sound system, and I have the following requirements for the cinema's audio:

1. The room will undergo professional acoustic design. The budget for audio equipment is not a concern, and we should strive to achieve the best possible results.
2. A very wide sound field.
3. Neutral, accurate, uncolored sound with large dynamics and high resolution.
4. The best surround sound effect.
5. A very high sound pressure level. I will be sitting about 7.5 meters away to watch movies, so the speakers should be able to reach reference - level volume at a distance of at least 7.5 meters while maintaining excellent sound quality.
6. The best bass effect, reaching infrasound frequencies.
7. Approximately 20 seats.
8. Give priority to the sound quality at my seating position.

Are there any speakers recommended that meet these conditions?

This is a very interesting challenge. Imo the combination of characteristics you describe generally point towards a cinema-style horn system, but with optimization for sound quality rather than most efficient audience coverage. Very big cinema-style horns tend to be optimized for attributes other than highest possible sound quality.

Without knowing the physical layout you have I don't know what radiation pattern widths would be feasible, so that would be one of the things I'd want to look at.

In a 90-degree horizontal pattern width, the PBN M2!5S comes to mind as a theoretically higher-output alternative to the JBL M2: https://pbnaudio.com/m25-loudspeaker/

My understanding is that member @Bjorn has something interesting which is pretty far along in the development process, and his horns are works of art: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...audio-midrange-horn-polar-measurements.42732/

I've done some work with large-format off-the-shelf studio-style horns and some with large-format custom horns, but again I'd want to look at the coverage patterns required.

Imo the solution north of the subwoofer region will help to define what the subwoofers need to do.

One outright recommendation I will make, if you don't already have an acoustician: Jeff Hedback of Hedback Designed Acoustics. He is a multiple-award-winning studio designer who also does high-end home audio and home theater rooms, and he is still affordable. The most far-reaching decisions are made at the beginning of a project like this, which is also when you know the least, so imo this is the stage when outside expertise is the most beneficial. Jeff works remotely so geography is not an issue:

hdacoustics.net – HD Acoustics

 

[Audionaut]

A German company that equips large home movie theaters with professional loudspeakers from its own production.
Talk to them about your ideas and they will offer you the world's best solution.
This should suit your needs

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO state of the art home theater systems.

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO GmbH develops and manufactures state-of-the-art active or passive subwoofer and home theater loudspeaker systems in Germany.

www.aia-cinema.com

 

[Mr. Widget]

I have a very large plot of land in the countryside. I hope to build a private cinema from scratch, with a screen size of over 350 inches. The cinema is approximately 14 meters long and has a volume of around 700 cubic meters. I want to set up a surround sound system, and I have the following requirements for the cinema's audio:

1. The room will undergo professional acoustic design. The budget for audio equipment is not a concern, and we should strive to achieve the best possible results.
2. A very wide sound field.
3. Neutral, accurate, uncolored sound with large dynamics and high resolution.
4. The best surround sound effect.
5. A very high sound pressure level. I will be sitting about 7.5 meters away to watch movies, so the speakers should be able to reach reference - level volume at a distance of at least 7.5 meters while maintaining excellent sound quality.
6. The best bass effect, reaching infrasound frequencies.
7. Approximately 20 seats.8. Give priority to the sound quality at my seating position.

Are there any speakers recommended that meet these conditions?

There are several design firms that we work with that design the screening rooms for directors and producers and for people whose livelihoods require calibrated DCI rooms as well as dedicated movie lovers with means.

I can introduce you to a couple of them. Send me a private conversation if you are interested.

Is the sound quality of JBL DD6700 much better than that of JBL M2? I've heard before that JBL M2 is the JBL speaker with the best sound quality. Or is the improvement more in terms of appearance? If it's an improvement in sound quality, I'll put it on my list. The appearance doesn't matter because the speakers will be hidden behind the screen. I don't want to pay more for the appearance.

The M2 is technically superior, however subjectively many of us prefer the DD67000.

That said, if you have the means, then pull out the stops and get the Bluehorns for LCR. I really doubt you will be disappointed.

 

[CINERAMAX]

Nowadays I just do coaxial here is a powerful solution with soft domes arrays.

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - ML 811K1

 

[CINERAMAX]

A German company that equips large home movie theaters with professional loudspeakers from its own production.
Talk to them about your ideas and they will offer you the world's best solution.
This should suit your needs

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO state of the art home theater systems.

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO GmbH develops and manufactures state-of-the-art active or passive subwoofer and home theater loudspeaker systems in Germany.

www.aia-cinema.com

I second this.

 

[Duke]

Just now seeing this for the first time:

https://www.aia-cinema.com/products/2023_Products/BLACK_SWAN/BLACK_SWAN/Technical_Data_BLACK_SWAN_ACTIVE_EXT.pdf

At first glance, this looks very good to me (and I'm a bit of a horn snob).

 

[pierre]

A German company that equips large home movie theaters with professional loudspeakers from its own production.
Talk to them about your ideas and they will offer you the world's best solution.
This should suit your needs

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO state of the art home theater systems.

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO GmbH develops and manufactures state-of-the-art active or passive subwoofer and home theater loudspeaker systems in Germany.

www.aia-cinema.com

+1 for ascendo.

For genelec, just ask them, support is excellent.

For JBL, they have a whole cinema pro line.

I would use line arrays, cheaper, no issue with SPL and you can put a lot of
them. It will help with seat to seat variations. Add a bunch of subs and a trinnov are you are good. Sure you can make it more expensive but better quality is to be proven.

 

[CINERAMAX]

In 2015, through my Barco contacts, I brought Alcons Audio to CEDIA. Since then, it has been a steady decline—8-inch woofers deteriorating at an accelerated rate, software updates that reset all gain settings, five-month-long amp repairs, and the pièce de résistance: their unwavering admiration for an Austrian calibrator.


This individual once reached out to me after a cancer scare, writing:
"Last year I often asked myself this ominous question: 'When you can be anything you wish for in the world, what would you be?' A rock star, an astronaut, a football (as in soccer) player, or just plain rich? No, I want to be like Peter CINERAMAX. I aim to design and build home theaters to the best of my capabilities."


Feeling empathy, I invited him to participate in the launch. Big mistake.


There is now an affidavit detailing how I inadvertently introduced to the industry the most Holocaust-celebrating ("those guys had it coming") and anti-African American individual I have ever encountered. A social climber who took credit for my custom Quested speaker designs, wrote an article claiming my work as his own, and—despite a complete lack of understanding of room isolation—claims to consult architects on acoustical matters at ISE.


Some things age well. Alcons and bad actors, not .

 

[Waxx]

I would suggest JBL cinema speakers like the 4733 with a pair of 4246A subs. The standard crown amplification is good for cinema standards, but you could aim for better with other dsp and amps, they are not mandatory (altough JBL like to hide that). These are build with good drivers and sturdy cabinets, but rely on dsp to sound good (so a dsp is mandatory). The disadvantage of those is that they are big and not build for looks (altough i don't think they are ugly, you may). The 4733 is normally hidden behind the projection screen. Other similar systems could probally do the same.

Hifi speakers, even the big ones like the M2 are not made for such big spaces, while commercial theater speakers are, and JBL is the best i know in that type.