Could recommend speakers suitable for extra-large spaces?

[Puddingbuks]

Sound quality for movies is overrated. Yes it should sound nice, flat and powerful, but the last few percent in quality really don’t matter imo.

I would get a JBL pro cinema setup. 2 or 4 of 5628 subwoofers and C222 cinema speakers for atmos (7 floor, 6 overhead) with amps and dsp will cost you 70-80k.

 

[CINERAMAX]

Musicality is where I have a problem with most compression driver speakers. I have a large collection of Atmos Music Blurays, super audio cd's, dvd audio all multichannel ( no stereo) as well as owning 2,600 kaleidescape titles. The most dramatic Atmos pirouttes are found in Music Titles, If you have to use horns, be careful, the most musical are Ascendo's and for 2<150hz waveforming this is the ideal sub, but you will need many of them.

 

[-Matt-]

Earlier in the thread a question was asked about LCR vs 5 screen front speakers.

There is quite a big difference between the Dolby Atmos spec for home theatre systems and for professional theatres:

Home:

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

Professional:

Loading…

professional.dolby.com

What will your source material be?
If you plan to just buy consumer 4k BluRays you will be stuck using the home theatre spec of source material.

I think for the type of project you are considering it would be worth consulting with professional theatre installers to find out if there is a way to get hold of the proper cinema source material. I think previously this was delivered on hard disks, no idea how it is done now, probably a download service that you need to register for with the studios. It is not something that you can just walk into a store and get.

I'd be asking the professional cinema installer for speaker and hardware recommendations too, but I think Meyer Sound are likely to be high up on that list.


Edit:
Perhaps you would need something like this:

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/products/dolby-imaging-solutions-for-media/ims3000/dolby_ims3000_product_sheet_2023.pdf

With one of these:

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/products/cp950a/dolby_cp950a_product_sheet-2.pdf

Not sure if Trinnov can do pro-cinema too, or if it just upscales the home version?

 

[Flaesh]

The room will undergo professional acoustic design.

How professional? For example, some acoustic fields are sold as "professional".
Do you have room drawing?

 

[dedobot]

Earlier in the thread a question was asked about LCR vs 5 screen front speakers.

There is quite a big difference between the Dolby Atmos spec for home theatre systems and for professional theatres:
View attachment 429081
Home:

https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/technologies/dolby-atmos/atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf

Professional:

Loading…

professional.dolby.com

What will your source material be?
If you plan to just buy consumer 4k BluRays you will be stuck using the home theatre spec of source material.

I think for the type of project you are considering it would be worth consulting with professional theatre installers to find out if there is a way to get hold of the proper cinema source material. I think previously this was delivered on hard disks, no idea how it is done now, probably a download service that you need to register for with the studios. It is not something that you can just walk into a store and get.

I'd be asking the professional cinema installer for speaker and hardware recommendations too, but I think Meyer Sound are likely to be high up on that list.


Edit:
Perhaps you would need something like this:
View attachment 429087

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/products/dolby-imaging-solutions-for-media/ims3000/dolby_ims3000_product_sheet_2023.pdf

With one of these:
View attachment 429088

https://professional.dolby.com/siteassets/products/cp950a/dolby_cp950a_product_sheet-2.pdf

Not sure if Trinnov can do pro-cinema too, or if it just upscales the home version?

Full blown Atmos.

 

[-Matt-]

View attachment 429095

Full blown Atmos.

I know it can output the channels, but how does it take the cinema atmos input? Doesn't it only have HDMI?

 

[haerinnn]

This is a very interesting challenge. Imo the combination of characteristics you describe generally point towards a cinema-style horn system, but with optimization for sound quality rather than most efficient audience coverage. Very big cinema-style horns tend to be optimized for attributes other than highest possible sound quality.

Without knowing the physical layout you have I don't know what radiation pattern widths would be feasible, so that would be one of the things I'd want to look at.

In a 90-degree horizontal pattern width, the PBN M2!5S comes to mind as a theoretically higher-output alternative to the JBL M2: https://pbnaudio.com/m25-loudspeaker/

My understanding is that member @Bjorn has something interesting which is pretty far along in the development process, and his horns are works of art: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...audio-midrange-horn-polar-measurements.42732/

I've done some work with large-format off-the-shelf studio-style horns and some with large-format custom horns, but again I'd want to look at the coverage patterns required.

Imo the solution north of the subwoofer region will help to define what the subwoofers need to do.

One outright recommendation I will make, if you don't already have an acoustician: Jeff Hedback of Hedback Designed Acoustics. He is a multiple-award-winning studio designer who also does high-end home audio and home theater rooms, and he is still affordable. The most far-reaching decisions are made at the beginning of a project like this, which is also when you know the least, so imo this is the stage when outside expertise is the most beneficial. Jeff works remotely so geography is not an issue:

hdacoustics.net – HD Acoustics

I'm still in the conceptualization phase, which means the construction of the cinema hasn't started yet. So, in fact, I can design the spatial layout for the speakers. The venue is 140 square meters and can accommodate 20 people, providing a great deal of room for maneuver. Therefore, what I want to know is the upper limit of speakers in the scenarios that best suit them. I'm looking for speakers with the highest possible upper limits. Your recommendations are great, and I'll go and take a look.

 

[haerinnn]

Nowadays I just do coaxial here is a powerful solution with soft domes arrays.

musikelectronic geithain gmbh - ML 811K1

Why only use coaxial？

 

[haerinnn]

A German company that equips large home movie theaters with professional loudspeakers from its own production.
Talk to them about your ideas and they will offer you the world's best solution.
This should suit your needs

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO state of the art home theater systems.

ASCENDO IMMERSIVE AUDIO GmbH develops and manufactures state-of-the-art active or passive subwoofer and home theater loudspeaker systems in Germany.

www.aia-cinema.com

I know their subwoofers are great.

 

[haerinnn]

+1 for ascendo.

For genelec, just ask them, support is excellent.

For JBL, they have a whole cinema pro line.

I would use line arrays, cheaper, no issue with SPL and you can put a lot of
them. It will help with seat to seat variations. Add a bunch of subs and a trinnov are you are good. Sure you can make it more expensive but better quality is to be proven.

What are the disadvantages of line arrays compared with point sources? I know that the spl of line arrays decays more slowly than that of point sources at the same distance. Besides this, how does the sound quality of line arrays compare with that of point sources?

 

[Chris A]

Very big cinema-style horns tend to be optimized for attributes other than highest possible sound quality.

But not Klipsch Pro. But you probably already know that they were designed for lowest distortion and controlled directivity coverage by Delgado, et al. Only the base-level model HF compression drivers are chosen to hold costs down (10-20 kHz), and you can order higher quality compression drivers instead. I run TAD TD-4002s on my Jubilees made 18 years ago, dialed in using DSP crossover in-room (anechoic settings are also available from Klipsch). Modulation distortion, even at the highest operating SPLs imaginable, is inaudible as compared to anything having direct radiating woofers.

The Danley Synergy series is also available in DSP/multi-amp versions. Their phase performance, directivity control (passive or active), and inaudible modulation distortion likely beats anything else around north central Texas. Same thing on the HF compression driver availability, I would think...

Take a look.

Chris

 

[haerinnn]

Musicality is where I have a problem with most compression driver speakers. I have a large collection of Atmos Music Blurays, super audio cd's, dvd audio all multichannel ( no stereo) as well as owning 2,600 kaleidescape titles. The most dramatic Atmos pirouttes are found in Music Titles, If you have to use horns, be careful, the most musical are Ascendo's and for 2<150hz waveforming this is the ideal sub, but you will need many of them.

Why is this 28-inch one more expensive than their 32-inch one? Its spl is also inferior to that of the 32-inch one. Is it just because it's square? What are the advantages of the square shape?

 

[dedobot]

I know it can output the channels, but how does it take the cinema atmos input? Doesn't it only have HDMI?

DCP drive on usb/eSata or internet to local drive.

 

[Bjorn]

I have a very large plot of land in the countryside. I hope to build a private cinema from scratch, with a screen size of over 350 inches. The cinema is approximately 14 meters long and has a volume of around 700 cubic meters. I want to set up a surround sound system, and I have the following requirements for the cinema's audio:

1. The room will undergo professional acoustic design. The budget for audio equipment is not a concern, and we should strive to achieve the best possible results.
2. A very wide sound field.
3. Neutral, accurate, uncolored sound with large dynamics and high resolution.
4. The best surround sound effect.
5. A very high sound pressure level. I will be sitting about 7.5 meters away to watch movies, so the speakers should be able to reach reference - level volume at a distance of at least 7.5 meters while maintaining excellent sound quality.
6. The best bass effect, reaching infrasound frequencies.
7. Approximately 20 seats.8. Give priority to the sound quality at my seating position.

Are there any speakers recommended that meet these conditions?

I don't want to tout my horn here too much, but briefly give you an introduction since Duke mentioned me. If you're interested, it's best to contact me.

The horn speaker below which is named Vera Audio Sagarmatha will meet all these requirements.

The picture shows a prototype. The final model also has ribbons on the rear of the midbass horn.

Some features of this 2-way design:

- Extreme constant horizontal directivity of 80-90° between approximately 200 Hz and 20 KHz, meaning the sound doesn't change much anywere to the sides in the room.

- Very constant and quite narrow vertical directivity down to Schroeder frequency and avoidance of floor bounce with the result of a more even response in the room and less detrimental vertical reflections.

The uniform vertical dispersion also means the sound will be more or less the same to seats at different heights. A measurement below shows an indoor measurement over a reflective floor from floor to 150 cm over the floor. Room was challenging acoustically with a sloping ceiling and short distance to side walls.

- Active system with the benefit of time alignment, frequency accuracy, ability to tune the system to the room and taste, linear phase and excellent dynamics. Requires 4-channel amplification and a DSP. We have a few DSP options.

- High quality drivers and possibly one of the few in the world that still offers compression driver with beryllium diaphragm. Beryllium may be on the way out of the market now, so this offer will likely be for a limited time.

- Uses a separate subwoofer system for lower distortion, high SPL and ability to even out the response with optimal placement. We offer the subwoofer below which uses two 18" woofer in a push push configuration in a sealed enclosure and with a separate amplifier with 2500W i 4 Ohm, reaching very high levesl and can go down to 10 Hz or lower.

I also work with acoustics prefessionaly by the way and would be able to assist in that area if needed. A lot of treatment can be hidden when buillding the room from scratch and doesn't need to cost much either when done correctly.

We're located in Norway FIY.

 

[pierre]

What are the disadvantages of line arrays compared with point sources? I know that the volume of line arrays decays more slowly than that of point sources at the same distance. Besides this, how does the sound quality of line arrays compare with that of point sources?

In general, point source should be optimal. The key difference is on how many seats to you want to have good sound? Point source will optimise for a zone. If people are outside of that zone, quality will degrade substantially. If you have a line array, you can optimise for each row of seats. You will have interferences between the speakers in the array which may make the array less optimal for the best seat. Depending on the room, the number of seats etc you should go from one to the other.

Examples:
- Genelec: https://www.genelec.com/film-drama-post/1234ac-s360-7382-immersive-system which is already overkill.
- JBL: https://jblpro.com/en/product_families/small-format
- RCF: https://www.rcf.it/en/products/product-detail/hdl-6-a (small line array, all relative of course)
- Meyer is great (and expensive too)
- Fulcrum is another excellent option: https://www.fulcrum-acoustic.com/product/fh15-full-range-coaxial-horn/

List is endless

 

[-Matt-]

This blog post from Trinnov suggests that it can accept DCI content (such as from the Dolby IMS3000 via AES67 (though not sure if it can do that at max sample rate).

Trinnov | Audio over IP for home theater applications

Pros and cons of audio over IP technologies such as Dante, Ravenna, AVB and AES67 for home theater applications

www.trinnov.com

(I think you'd need the Altitude 32 and the Altitude 48 Ext to match the 64 channels of the Dolby CP950A).


It also mentions Bel Air Cinema as offering a cinema content service.

The Bel Air Cinema

Bel Air - Time for a new era

www.belaircinema.com

Could be worth investigation for the OP if they are seriously considering building a private cinema as opposed to a high-end home cinema.

 

[Chris A]

I would avoid direct radiating woofers in such a large space, if sound quality is your measure of merit.

I once heard a very interesting demonstration using dual and quad 15" drivers and then a fully horn loaded bass bin in a space that was roughly the same size as my listening area. The sound of modulation distortion in the direct radiating woofers (even quad 15" woofers) was unmistakable.

Bjorn is also showing you options on fully horn loaded designs, which is, I strongly believe, what you're likely going to pick in a shoot-off comparison, (And I'm not talking Avantgarde separate hypex horns, either.) You need controlled directivity all the way from the room's Schroeder frequency (i.e., sub-100 Hz) to 20 kHz. You can only do that with horn loading using 21st century-designed horns/waveguides--at the SPL needed.

Chris

 

[Bjorn]

What are the disadvantages of line arrays compared with point sources? I know that the spl of line arrays decays more slowly than that of point sources at the same distance. Besides this, how does the sound quality of line arrays compare with that of point sources?

With a traditonal line array speaker the drivers will only sum at very large distances (think outdoor use with very long distance). So IMO they are not suited well for indoor use because of the phase issues between the drivers. It basically doesn't sound coherent and there may also be some serious lobing issues.

There's is a type of line array that avoids this and that's the CBT (constant beamwidth transducer) design. Here the drivers sum up to a certain frequency, which is dependent on the space between the tweeters. You can see a CBT below that we're working on. However, this particular CBT is unlikely to meet your SPL requirements. That would require something custom.

 

[Rja4000]

I have a very large plot of land in the countryside. I hope to build a private cinema from scratch, with a screen size of over 350 inches. The cinema is approximately 14 meters long and has a volume of around 700 cubic meters. I want to set up a surround sound system, and I have the following requirements for the cinema's audio:

1. The room will undergo professional acoustic design. The budget for audio equipment is not a concern, and we should strive to achieve the best possible results.
2. A very wide sound field.
3. Neutral, accurate, uncolored sound with large dynamics and high resolution.
4. The best surround sound effect.
5. A very high sound pressure level. I will be sitting about 7.5 meters away to watch movies, so the speakers should be able to reach reference - level volume at a distance of at least 7.5 meters while maintaining excellent sound quality.
6. The best bass effect, reaching infrasound frequencies.
7. Approximately 20 seats.8. Give priority to the sound quality at my seating position.

Are there any speakers recommended that meet these conditions?

Maybe you should consult Amir's company

Madrona Digital - Our Services

Idea to Function

www.madronadigital.com

 

[Chris A]

I would avoid line (array) sources. You'll never get the vertical coverage you need (standing or sitting) unless CBT, or width horizontally needed to cover the listening areas. Danley is eating line arrays up for breakfast...that's how they're making their living.

Bjorn mentioned the SPL problem--and you'll still have the direct radiating woofer bass modulation distortion to listen to. There's an easy way to avoid all that.

Chris