Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[MattHooper]

This seems evident and straightforward to me as well.

That's because you can deal with nuance.

 

[levimax]

Put the same people in a room with unknown gear A and B, which definitely have sufficient difference to be easily detectable, and compare their assessments sighted vs controlled, and their sighted choices will be consistent with their cognitive biases, and their controlled listening choices will be consistent with what the measurements tell us they would likely choose.

I don't doubt this when it comes to gear playing back the same source. When it comes to different sources being played back on the same downstream gear it am not sure how blind preferences work. With vinyl recording and playback there is a lot going on and as a source and it is going to be different than a digital version. I have dozens of tracks of needle drops of original LP's and the original CD or Streaming version of the same song. I have been listening to them level matched recently and I usually have little trouble telling them apart. When it come to preference though it is not so simple. I am convinced that @beagleman comment about out of phase noise adding width to the sound stage of LP's is generally true. I also think it is generally true for older original LP's that they have a more "mid-range" focused FR balance compared to digital versions. Unfortunately it is also true that when many older analogue recording were transferred to digital they screwed around with the FR to make quick impression that they were better and different but often times these fall flat after a little time listening. For me my preferences were not consistent by format and change based on my mood as much as anything. The only consistent thing I found about my preferences was that the fancy Audiophile remasters like DCC and AP by SH and the like are almost always preferred by me whether digital or vinyl which is a bummer as these are expensive and not readily available. These source difference involve a lot of complicated things ... out of phase noise, FR changes, different master tape sources, etc. so I am not sure if you measured the differences between different sources of the same song that it would give you any predictive value on preferences.

 

[board]

Most of the people I know can easily pick out FR changes in excess of 1dB from the midrange of a cartridge. A Lyra Kleos is +2dB from 4k to 10k, and +4 dB at 20k. That is so substantial that I doubt many people wouldn't pick up on it when contrasts with a flat cartridge. Not to say that they'd describe it correctly - this is where terms like "detailed" and "air" come from.

Exactly. Although some vinylphiles are looking for the cartridge with the flattest frequency response and the least amount of distortion, many vinylphiles are paying big bucks for a specific sonic signature, like that of a Lyra for instance.

Granted, there is some cognitive bias to it, as in "all the experts say that Lyra carts are the very best, so I have to buy one", but I have also seen reports of people buying Lyra and then selling them again shortly after because that sound was only fitting for certain records (usually older records with less top-octave content).

It seems to me that people audition many different cartridges and then in the end choose one that sounds "just right", meaning it has the specific sonic signature that they're looking for, and often that means a very non-linear frequency response - some swear by a massive spike/rise around 10-15 kHz, others swear by Grado's "warm" drop-off frequency reponse.

This was actually my process as well. I auditioned around 35 cartridges, although most was downloads of recordings. Then I tried to find the one that was the most linear by comparing to CDs, and I settled on a Goldring Elite, although it's not quite linear. After a while and several more auditions I changed it to an Audio Technica AT33PTG, as that was really that sensation of relief somehow: "Aaaaah! This sounds just right".
I do think the Goldring also had a lot more distortion though, and although I usually don't find distortion (very) audible, in this particular case I think it might have been what was grating on my ears.

 

[board]

Just do the blind tests, and show me the consistency with sighted.

I used to use a Rega Exact cartridge, which was mounted with Rega's own alignment (something like Stevenson), including the third mounting screw. I then aligned it to Baerwald, recorded before and after, and I thought the Baerwald alignment was a bit brighter, but I actually thought I was just imagining it, which is why I did this ABX test, which was one of the earliest ABX tests I ever did:


foo_abx 2.0.2 report
foobar2000 v1.3.10
2016-09-14 21:08:19

File A: Stevie Ray Vaughn - In Step - Riviera Paradise.wav
SHA1: 7b4c524c12fa6a1fbf908c49c27293afafa15d8e
File B: Stevie Ray Vaughn - In Step JUSTERET PICKUP.wav
SHA1: e2f04fdfa1a7c6e18d78c1716162aeae7f0389b3

Output:
DS : Primær lyddriver
Crossfading: NO

21:08:19 : Test started.
21:12:28 : 01/01
21:12:42 : 02/02
21:13:05 : 03/03
21:13:24 : 04/04
21:14:20 : 04/05
21:14:36 : 05/06
21:14:59 : 06/07
21:17:18 : 07/08
21:17:49 : 08/09
21:18:55 : 09/10
21:20:18 : 10/11
21:20:45 : 11/12
21:21:50 : 12/13
21:22:21 : 13/14
21:22:42 : 14/15
21:23:17 : 15/16
21:23:17 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 15/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
0358f776ff1c46feb6f6777c9826a01fab1f0cba





I EQ'ed a song by Queensryche in two different ways. One seemed to have more "air" than the other, which it also was, since one had more top-octave content than the other. I can show a graph of the difference if you like.
Here's my ABX of it:

foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2019-10-26 18:34:05

File A: 03 - Jet City Woman EQ (kurve gemt som Queensryche 5 i Audacity).wav
SHA1: e093a40b54ad7cd3f40b27fe7fa7741abfc10e2a
File B: 03 - Jet City Woman EQ (kurve gemt som Queensryche 6 i Audacity).wav
SHA1: 192443380950b2630150b7ebbbd6c5dea620708c

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

18:34:05 : Test started.
18:38:09 : 01/01
18:38:17 : 02/02
18:38:24 : 03/03
18:38:30 : 04/04
18:38:37 : 05/05
18:38:49 : 06/06
18:38:56 : 07/07
18:39:03 : 08/08
18:39:10 : 09/09
18:39:17 : 10/10
18:39:24 : 11/11
18:39:30 : 12/12
18:39:38 : 13/13
18:39:53 : 14/14
18:39:59 : 15/15
18:40:26 : 16/16
18:40:26 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 16/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.0%

-- signature --
8d010bf07333f890ebdcecc855d12670bcde3a4f






Then I offered my girlfriend at the time to do the same ABX test, and this was the very first ABX test she ever did:



foo_abx 2.0 report
foobar2000 v1.3.7
2019-10-26 18:59:16

File A: 03 - Jet City Woman EQ (kurve gemt som Queensryche 5 i Audacity).wav
SHA1: e093a40b54ad7cd3f40b27fe7fa7741abfc10e2a
File B: 03 - Jet City Woman EQ (kurve gemt som Queensryche 6 i Audacity).wav
SHA1: 192443380950b2630150b7ebbbd6c5dea620708c

Output:
DS : Højttalere (CA USB Audio)
Crossfading: YES

18:59:16 : Test started.
19:03:06 : 01/01
19:03:55 : 02/02
19:04:43 : 03/03
19:05:11 : 03/04
19:08:00 : 04/05
19:08:41 : 05/06
19:09:03 : 05/07
19:09:24 : 06/08
19:10:22 : 07/09
19:11:56 : 08/10
19:12:32 : 09/11
19:12:52 : 10/12
19:13:10 : 11/13
19:13:25 : 12/14
19:14:29 : 13/15
19:15:34 : 14/16
19:15:34 : Test finished.

----------
Total: 14/16
Probability that you were guessing: 0.2%

-- signature --
f4ed7a50c8e4e5de0010fa44b921be0474409ac2





This might not be exactly what you're looking for, but at least it's a start.

 

[board]

I also think it is generally true for older original LP's that they have a more "mid-range" focused FR balance compared to digital versions. Unfortunately it is also true that when many older analogue recording were transferred to digital they screwed around with the FR to make quick impression that they were better and different but often times these fall flat after a little time listening.

It's definitely also my impression that especially reissues of albums from the 60s and 70s reissued on CD in the 80s and early 90s had the treble substantially boosted, and I've had this verified by checking it in Voxengo's plugin CurveEQ.
Here's one example, which is the album "Together" by Country Joe & the Fish - the original US LP vs. the first CD from around 1990 or so, where the orange line shows that the LP has more bass but less treble (or conversely, the CD has more treble but less bass):

In this particular case I found neither issue ideal, so I EQ'ed the CD in a way that made it sound spectacular .

I find the treble boosts on CDs to be particularly annoying when it's around 2-7 kHz, as that adds "edge", and that was often the type of boost that was used in the 80s and early 90s. When I EQ music I usually lower that area and then instead boost around 9-15 kHz, as that adds "air".
As for a midrange sound, I particularly find that 45s (7" singles) from the 60s and early 70s have a more midrange sound, with around 300-800 Hz a lot more prominent. I can post sound clips for anyone interested.
Unfortunately, those 45s were also often cut so loud that they distorted heavily, which sometimes made them unlistenable.

 

[goat76]

It's definitely also my impression that especially reissues of albums from the 60s and 70s reissued on CD in the 80s and early 90s had the treble substantially boosted, and I've had this verified by checking it in Voxengo's plugin CurveEQ.

What I read somewhere was that it was a transition period from going from the vinyl era to the CD era making the first years of CD releases unnecessarily bright and thin-sounding. People who had worked all those years making adjustments to suit and avoid some problems with vinyl still did some things just out of the routine and workflow, things that weren't really necessary to do anymore in the digital era.

 

[Leporello]

Here's the truth for you:

TURNTABLE BUYER'S GUIDE: RAW BEGINNERS!

Looking to buy a turntable for yourself or loved one? Haven’t got a clue how to go about it? Paul Rigby presents his top turntable buyer’s guide plus some extra advice Fashion. It can be a right pain in the neck, can’t it? As soon as something moves into ‘vogue’, everyone has to have one...

theaudiophileman.com

That is, you can get better sound quality from a cheap vinyl system than a similarly priced digital system.

I addition, the more money you throw at a vinyl system, the more those records will reward you. There is no upper limit because analogue has no sonic limit.

Impeccable logic.

 

[Mean & Green]

Here's the truth for you:

TURNTABLE BUYER'S GUIDE: RAW BEGINNERS!

Looking to buy a turntable for yourself or loved one? Haven’t got a clue how to go about it? Paul Rigby presents his top turntable buyer’s guide plus some extra advice Fashion. It can be a right pain in the neck, can’t it? As soon as something moves into ‘vogue’, everyone has to have one...

theaudiophileman.com

Impeccable logic.

Are you being serious?

 

[levimax]

Here's the truth for you:

TURNTABLE BUYER'S GUIDE: RAW BEGINNERS!

Looking to buy a turntable for yourself or loved one? Haven’t got a clue how to go about it? Paul Rigby presents his top turntable buyer’s guide plus some extra advice Fashion. It can be a right pain in the neck, can’t it? As soon as something moves into ‘vogue’, everyone has to have one...

theaudiophileman.com

Impeccable logic.

This is the type of BS that drives @Sal1950 crazy and I don't like it either.

 

[JP]

None of us like it.

 

[tmtomh]

Are you being serious?

Based on @Leporello 's previous comments, no.

 

[thecheapseats]

this is still going on?... amazing...

 

[JP]

Exactly. Although some vinylphiles are looking for the cartridge with the flattest frequency response and the least amount of distortion, many vinylphiles are paying big bucks for a specific sonic signature, like that of a Lyra for instance.

Granted, there is some cognitive bias to it, as in "all the experts say that Lyra carts are the very best, so I have to buy one", but I have also seen reports of people buying Lyra and then selling them again shortly after because that sound was only fitting for certain records (usually older records with less top-octave content).

It seems to me that people audition many different cartridges and then in the end choose one that sounds "just right", meaning it has the specific sonic signature that they're looking for, and often that means a very non-linear frequency response - some swear by a massive spike/rise around 10-15 kHz, others swear by Grado's "warm" drop-off frequency reponse.

This was actually my process as well. I auditioned around 35 cartridges, although most was downloads of recordings. Then I tried to find the one that was the most linear by comparing to CDs, and I settled on a Goldring Elite, although it's not quite linear. After a while and several more auditions I changed it to an Audio Technica AT33PTG, as that was really that sensation of relief somehow: "Aaaaah! This sounds just right".
I do think the Goldring also had a lot more distortion though, and although I usually don't find distortion (very) audible, in this particular case I think it might have been what was grating on my ears.

We've tried to make the process easier, for both measuring FR and comprising a library of measurements:

Phono Cartridge Response Measurement Script

This thread is intended to consolidate the technical discussion and further development of Scott Wurcer's frequency response measurement script to a central area. I'd like to keep this discussion about the tool rather than specific cartridges. I'll edit this and the subsequent reserved posts in...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Introducing the Phono Cartridge Measurement Library

After years of development we are finally launching our phono cartridge measurement library. These measurements were created using the brilliant cartridge response python script written by @scott wurcer and @JP. Information about its origins can be found in the following threads...

www.audiosciencereview.com

It's rather difficult to find current production cartridges that have flat FR. One can do okay with a current 500/700 setup but Rl needs to be lowered to around 34k to do it, and it begins to roll off around 14kHz. There's not much up there, and most of us can't hear that high anyway. AT33PTGII measured fairly well, which you've discovered.

Reading impressions and putting some material out for half a decade, people do demonstrate rather consistent preferences, but it's also accompanied with the usual anecdotes. For most, some part of the description and anecdotes correlates to measured differences. It becomes problematic when they've no reference for comparison - then it's just a sea of words that don't mean much.

My favorite is the couple times I've posted MC and MM samples in MC vs. MM threads. I always choose carts that have very similar FR, and don't disclose which is which. The number of respondents are low, but for my examples there are three groups: Those who don't hear a difference, those who hear a difference but their descriptions don't correlate to anything, and a couple that hear differences who's descriptions correlate to very minor measured difference. Ironic that the people who tend to be the most vocal about there being significant difference in general are usual in the first group.

@Newman, by being binary/painting with such a large brush, you're falling victim to denying the antecedent. Objective testing of everything isn't practical so we look at the odds. Subjective descriptions that directly correlate to contextually large measured effects have rather good odds of being real. The same demonstrating a consistent pattern of preference citing those subjective descriptions with consistent correlation to the same measured effect patterns increase the odds again. Sure, there's also anecdotal noise mixed in, but that's rather easy to separate.

 

[antcollinet]

Impeccable logic.

Possibly in some other universe. Maybe the disc-world universe where science is replaced with magic.

Not in this one.

 

[egellings]

As long as your turntable isn’t banished to another room, you’re good.



Reproduction from both vinyl and digital sources is imperfect. We can identify more imperfections and greater magnitudes of same wrt vinyl. I don’t possess any of the latter but in my astonishingly limited experience listening to some (blind) digital vs vinyl needle drops I’ve identified subtly different sonics that I can imagine some preferring as euphonic. Even if those people aren’t me. Among all the other reasons.

As @levimax just said, sometimes the pejoratives and aspersions are laid on a bit too thick.

Feel free to criticize vinyl; just don't add any ad hominem insults to those who prefer it. It's only a hobby, for crum's sake, not a national defense issue.

 

[Mean & Green]

Based on @Leporello 's previous comments, no.

That’s good to know.

I’ve only been skimming through the most recent pages of the thread so hard to tell.

 

[Reed]

Reasons for vinyl in this modern world
1. Full size artwork. Anyone see Squaring the Circle (The Story of Hipgnosis)? The art and packaging can’t be replicated in digital.
2. Some works just aren’t available digitally
3. Special releases and box sets (see 1 and 2)
4. Nostalgia
I gave away 90% of my “records” over the past few years, the rest are in climate controlled storage. Most CDs gone as well. What I have is either irreplaceable, was never released digitally or I have sentimental reasons to hold onto. My dad bought me my first stereo in middle school and I still have my first album that I purchased after saving my 50 cent/week allowance - Cosmo’s Factory. Sound quality, fidelity, etc. plays no part for me.

 

[thecheapseats]

Reasons for vinyl in this modern world
1. Full size artwork. Anyone see Squaring the Circle (The Story of Hipgnosis)? The art and packaging can’t be replicated in digital.
2. Some works just aren’t available digitally
3. Special releases and box sets (see 1 and 2)
4. Nostalgia
I gave away 90% of my “records” over the past few years, the rest are in climate controlled storage. Most CDs gone as well. What I have is either irreplaceable, was never released digitally or I have sentimental reasons to hold onto. My dad bought me my first stereo in middle school and I still have my first album that I purchased after saving my 50 cent/week allowance - Cosmo’s Factory. Sound quality, fidelity, etc. plays no part for me.

5. Hipster appeal...

 

[Anton D]

So, is playing vinyl or vinyl hating the red/beige/green flag for apps?

Probably being strongly one way or the other is the real turnoff.

 

[drewdawg999]

I remember reading somewhere decades ago, from some prominent audio writer, something to the effect of:

The better Analog playback gets, the more it sounds like digital.

Meaning to me, that analog is flawed to some degree, and only has a "Sound" based on its flaws.
When you remove the distortions, overload, noise, mistracking, and on and on, You have Digital.

I'm finding this to be true in my system right now. Analogue and digital are battling for my attention and I can't choose. But one side was very expensive and the other not so much. I'm getting incredible detail out of vinyl and warmth and smoothness out of digital. My new DAC, SMSL D-6, does DSD Direct and that sounds like master tape to me. Like vinyl on a posh table, but without surface noise, which is very sweet indeed.