Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[Newman]

What Matt said.

Oh, so in reality, you are asking for 'nice' reactions to thread titles like "Why do records sound so much better than digital"?

Got it.

OTOH if Matt is wrong about me chasing ghosts and the author of that thread actually is digiphobic (PS he is), then "What Matt said" is a pretty poor answer.

Why don't you answer properly by showing some evidence of Biff Tanner in the ASR vinyl forum, like I asked? Especially threads opened there for technical discussion. You literally said that they will be greeted by the Biff Tanner welcoming committee, so there must be plenty of examples to hand.

Or is it that you are the one chasing ghosts? And Matt took his accusation to the wrong guy again?

 

[USER]

I hold it in my hand, 'cause you shouldn't need two hands on the cartridge unless you're tweaking it. I look, tweak, look, tweak, etc.

One trade-off at 4x is that the stylus is pretty small. My eyes aren't great but not an issue with my glasses.

I use one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B09TZSXT54/

Not the highest build quality, but the 30x magnification (or whatever it really is) is useful. At $15, it's worth a try.

 

[JP]

I use one of these: https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B09TZSXT54/

Not the highest build quality, but it's pretty nice. At $15, it's worth a try.

View attachment 257633

Ya could be. WD and FoV would be my priority. For low-riding cartridges minimal bezel helps too.

 

[MattHooper]

Oh, so in reality, you are asking for 'nice' reactions to thread titles like "Why do records sound so much better than digital"?

Got it.

Yes. Even, I would think, in the case where someone has some mistaken beliefs about vinyl and digital.

OTOH if Matt is wrong about me chasing ghosts and the author of that thread actually is digiphobic (PS he is), then "What Matt said" is a pretty poor answer.

That illustrates my point.

How many threads can you find touting vinyl as superior? Not exactly a routine thing around here is it? Anyone can do a search to see how rare such a thread is here.

And look at the actual content of that thread - the weird claims ('you can't match the sound quality of vinyl with 1's and 0s') by the OP met with widespread disagreement . It's 135 pages long and anyone perusing the thread will see that virtually everyone participating, whether they enjoy vinyl or not, isn't propounding "digiphobia."

The same for this 98 page long thread!

You seem to be very alert for the appearance of witches. If someone ACTUALLY makes bogus technical claims, sure, have at it. But just people talking about enjoying vinyl, or even...gasp...saying they like the sound of their records? Put down the torch.

 

[levimax]

Second part is figuring out how to hold it in a way that it doesn't move when tightening the screws.

Yep I have everything snug but moveable and get things just where I want and then tighten the screws and it moves

 

[MattHooper]

Yep I have everything snug but moveable and get things just where I want and then tighten the screws and it moves

It's maddening that after all this time so few manufacturers seem to have produced phono gear that doesn't suffer this incredibly obvious problem!

I mean, I know there are some cartridges that, I think, just sort of snap on and off, but for the most part it seems many of us are left struggling with the incredibly finicky inefficient system you describe.

 

[JP]

Yep I have everything snug but moveable and get things just where I want and then tighten the screws and it moves

Try sneaking up on it - tiny fractions of a turn alternating both screws. Often torquing one will cause it to move the loose one, but if you tighten slowly and evenly you can usually avoid that.

 

[levimax]

It's maddening that after all this time so few manufacturers seem to have produced phono gear that doesn't suffer this incredibly obvious problem!

I mean, I know there are some cartridges that, I think, just sort of snap on and off, but for the most part it seems many of us are left struggling with the incredibly finicky inefficient system you describe.

I have a p-mount table which is easy.... the problem is some of the good aftermarket styluses (styli ?) are a different length than the originals which kind of defeats the purpose. The S-arms from Technics past and present are pretty easy and can be set up with a overhang gauge with the head shell off the arm. To me the killers are straight arms with standard mount. Frustrating and easy to cause damage.... a good way to get an adrenalin rush if you are mounting an expensive cart.

 

[MattHooper]

I'm just gonna drop this here. I actually wasn't terribly impressed by the content of this 'essay', but it seems somehow apropos here.

Did the Music Business Just Kill the Vinyl Revival?

New data tells an ominous story

tedgioia.substack.com

Thanks for the article.

I find it hard to disagree with what he wrote. Knumbskull big music producers may kill the goose that laid their golden egg. Vinyl prices are getting out of hand.

 

[JP]

Oh, so in reality, you are asking for 'nice' reactions to thread titles like "Why do records sound so much better than digital"?

Got it.

OTOH if Matt is wrong about me chasing ghosts and the author of that thread actually is digiphobic (PS he is), then "What Matt said" is a pretty poor answer.

Why don't you answer properly by showing some evidence of Biff Tanner in the ASR vinyl forum, like I asked? Especially threads opened there for technical discussion. You literally said that they will be greeted by the Biff Tanner welcoming committee, so there must be plenty of examples to hand.

Or is it that you are the one chasing ghosts? And Matt took his accusation to the wrong guy again?

I think there's a better way than "aggressive negativity". There should never need to be a special thread with special rules so that reasonable conversations that are aligned with the ASR ethos can happen - the inability for that to occur was why that person created that thread. It shouldn't need to be said, but any evidenced-based or ethos-aligned conversation should be able to happen anywhere here.

I don't think talking about outdated technologies opens the door to being overrun by faith-based audio people. A "digiphobe" started the click-bait "vinyl is better" thread and the forum's "vinyl" folks shut him down in a page or two. This place will be just fine.

All the broadly frequented vinyl threads here have folks that are incessant about proclaiming the unworthiness of the format and that it shouldn't be discussed here, and they're generally called on it every time. I don't see it necessary to search out the specific instances, or that summarizing a sample of them here is going to bring any enlightenment to anyone. I'm going to trust that people will take on board the criticisms that are relevant to them, and they'll do whatever they're going to do with them.

 

[EJ3]

I have a p-mount table which is easy.... the problem is some of the good aftermarket styluses (styli ?) are a different length than the originals which kind of defeats the purpose. The S-arms from Technics past and present are pretty easy and can be set up with a overhang gauge with the head shell off the arm. To me the killers are straight arms with standard mount. Frustrating and easy to cause damage.... a good way to get an adrenalin rush if you are mounting an expensive cart.

This is not a picture of mine but mine is the same. Linear tracking straight Titanium Nitride tone arm with T4P mount (on the Technics SL-M3 TT).
I am currently using a NOS SHURE ULTRA 300 T4P cartridge.
(Correct or not, I use the word 'styli' when talking about more than 1), so far no one has corrected me.
But, I could be wrong and they could be just being nice because they understand what it is I am talking about, whether I am right or wrong in my word usage.

 

[JP]

I use the word 'styli' when talking about more than 1

Thumbs up

 

[EJ3]

Oh, so in reality, you are asking for 'nice' reactions to thread titles like "Why do records sound so much better than digital"?

In general: One can tell the truth that even 'great vinyl" is not more accurate, does not have a better noise floor and many other truths) about digital versus vinyl without being an ass hat.

If someone is so deluded in the cult that vinyl (or cassette or Reel to Reel, or even 8 track) is more accurate than digital, then it is obvious that they are in the Michael Fremer cult or worse (and they may not even know it or who he is).

Then they can be directed to the truth.

But, as the old saying goes: 'you can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink'.
Just like some folks just cannot be convinced that the world is not flat. No matter what we do, their minds will not change.
No sense in wasting your time (a commodity that you cannot get more of) trying to convince those that won't be convinced.

Their are many reasons to use formats other than someone else's preference.

On the other hand, their are people like me who use many formats (even FM [but not 8 track, although one of my AKAI reel to reels for some obscure reason has an 8 track built into it]).

I think that most folks (like me) want to get the best out of all their formats. (be they vinyl, shellac [yep, I have those too, dating as early as 1927] or something else). There is SCIENCE involved in each format (ergonomics, aesthetics, etc) are also part of peoples decisions on which item to work into their system, whether it's a DAC, a 4K player (like my region free oPPo 205 UHD player), a Blue Ray recorder (yes, they exist), a turntable or any other item in their system.

(I own something that will currently play (and in the ones that were designed for recording (including the Blue Ray and my HDD & SSD's in every format I've mentioned).

And I strive to make each one the best that it can be.

 

[Galliardist]

Thanks for the article.

I find it hard to disagree with what he wrote. Knumbskull big music producers may kill the goose that laid their golden egg. Vinyl prices are getting out of hand.

Lots of comments from a very angry sounding Michael Fremer there if you look. My favourite:

But the most angry people I've come across recently are MFSL buyers wanting their analogue back, followed by those complaining about the price of vinyl, followed by those complaining about pressing quality. People complain about compressed digital, but I don't see them as being angry in the same way.

But I get where the record companies are coming from, perhaps. There are some missing figures in that article.

The first is the comparison of purchases to streaming, in monetary terms.
The second is the profit per vinyl disc sold. So $30 might actually be the cost for an LP in real terms compared to the mid 1960s... probably less for the 1970s. If they sell them for $50 or 60 that's pure profit. They probably can't invest really heavily and bring the price down as the article suggests, because proper production is a time (and unless you design automation in) labour intensive process. You lose the elitism value if the LP costs half as much. You have to produce more masters, also an expensive process. And what for, if you invest that heavily and then the bubble bursts anyway? Let's face it, if you are sat as a music company executive, what do you think the advice is about expanding vinyl? It's that other figure that is given - over 50% don't own a record player. That says that your market is a very small number of people, into the future. Why would you invest?

The third is the real state of the CD market and what it means to a lower level of artist, those who make and sell privately - classical artists, jazz and other specialist musics, buskers. If you keep the price of your disc realistic, you'll sell them at concerts, get radio plays (what stations rely on streaming?) and it's good advertising. As we come out of covid, the CD market may be much healthier than official figures suggest, even if the labels aren't making the money. I'm describing most of the CDs I've bought over the past few years here. A concert attended by 150 people may generate a dozen or so sales, maybe more, but it adds up over time. Does that happen in other formats to any real extent?

 

[oceansize]

The third is the real state of the CD market and what it means to a lower level of artist, those who make and sell privately - classical artists, jazz and other specialist musics, buskers. If you keep the price of your disc realistic, you'll sell them at concerts, get radio plays (what stations rely on streaming?) and it's good advertising. As we come out of covid, the CD market may be much healthier than official figures suggest, even if the labels aren't making the money. I'm describing most of the CDs I've bought over the past few years here. A concert attended by 150 people may generate a dozen or so sales, maybe more, but it adds up over time. Does that happen in other formats to any real extent?

Maybe not in Australia, but here in the UK I go to lots of gigs by smaller, underground artists (I hate the whole stadium/arena gig thing) and vinyl is much more likely to be on the merch table than CDs.

 

[Newman]

Maybe not in Australia, but here in the UK I go to lots of gigs by smaller, underground artists (I hate the whole stadium/arena gig thing) and vinyl is much more likely to be on the merch table than CDs.

What, you mean fresh pressings by the band that played the gig?

 

[oceansize]

What, you mean fresh pressings by the band that played the gig?

Yep. And probably from the opening act too.

 

[Newman]

Yep. And probably from the opening act too.

Cool. Who makes these fresh pressings?

 

[oceansize]

Cool. Who makes these fresh pressings?

I think most are pressed in Germany or the Czech Republic. But a new pressing plant opened in the UK recently.

 

[Newman]

their are people like me who use many formats …
I think that most folks (like me) want to get the best out of all their formats.

Snap! Me too. And I’m glad that ASR has forums for both digital and analog source formats. I use both.

Plus, I haven’t noticed objectionable degrees of cross-trolling in either the analog or digital source forums, by people deliberately aiming to antagonise. I see nothing to discourage technical science based discussions of any source format in the relevant forum. So everyone should be happy.

Yet, strangely, some are not happy, and this seems to arise in the general discussion forums where comparisons of vinyl and digital are more common. Even though I’m told that nobody here disputes that vinyl is surpassed and audibly so, all those same people get visibly upset when anyone says what is apparently not disputed. The best explanation for this contradiction is that they very strongly do dispute it, privately, but won’t say so in the forum because they know they can’t justify it. So they get frustrated that “vinyl is surpassed” can be said here but “vinyl sounds best” can’t, and they start shooting the messenger with comments like “you are saying it too loudly”, “you are saying it too often”, and “you are calling me stupid for choosing vinyl and that’s offensive” (show me where people are called stupid for buying vinyl).

I see very little complaining on ASR about some of the very heavy-handed comments regarding serious-money cables, directed at both the sellers and the buyers. It would be hypocritical to demand that vinyl alone gets special ‘kid-gloves’ treatment.

cheers