Cable Confessions

[watchnerd]

I thought I was extremely rational, and cheap, about my cable choices.

However, tonight I just ordered a new set of XLR cables (Neutrik connectors, Belden 1800F cable) from Blue Jeans cable. $61 for a 6 foot pair.

Ridiculously cheap from an audiophile POV. Mockable, even, by those who are into spending big on cables.

But, from an objective point of view, very defensible: Belden is a trusted, professional grade, no-bullcrap cable company. Not snake oil in the slightest.

And then I went to Monoprice, where I can get a 6 foot pair of XLR cables for $10 and change.

If I'm honest with myself, I really doubt, whatever quality difference there might be between Belden and Monoprice, that it matters over a 6 foot run.

And, yet, I paid 6X what I needed to pay in order to have the trusted Neutrik connectors and Belden cable. I don't think they would sound any different, but I "feel better" knowing I have quality from trusted brands.

Am I just as much an audiophool as the big cable believers?

Do you have any similar cable confessions you need to make?

 

[Sal1950]

If I'm honest with myself, I really doubt, whatever quality difference there might be between Belden and Monoprice, that it matters over a 6 foot run.

And, yet, I paid 6X what I needed to pay in order to have the trusted Neutrik connectors and Belden cable. I don't think they would sound any different, but I "feel better" knowing I have quality from trusted brands.

Am I just as much an audiophool as the big cable believers?

No if you look beyond SQ to the reliability factor. Can't say for sure without seeing both but with the BJC stuff you know (IME) you are getting a well crafted product the won't crap the bed just whey you need it the most.

 

[watchnerd]

No if you look beyond SQ to the reliability factor. Can't say for sure without seeing both but with the BJC stuff you know (IME) you are getting a well crafted product the won't crap the bed just whey you need it the most.

Well, the Monoprice look the flashier of the two, with thicker cable insulation and glossy metallic connectors:

The Belden / Neutrik cables look pretty plain jane by comparison:

 

[Dynamix]

https://www.klotz-ais.com/

 

[Sal1950]

You do wonder what's under the skin, but who knows. In your example the Neutrik connectors and Belden cable do bring a known product quality to the table.
But I also recently went the other way. I wanted to replace all the sets of RCA cables from my Pre/Pro to the 3 amps. So instead of getting the expensive (comparatively) BJC LC-1's, I decided to try the Monoprice Premiums. No spec's get listed but I only needed 1/2 and 1 meter lengths so how much LCR could they introduce? I was very pleasantly surprised by the visible quality of the RCA plugs, good heavy metal on the gold plated tension pedals look to retain grip/connection for the long term.
Ya buy your ticket and take the ride.

 

[watchnerd]

https://www.klotz-ais.com/

I didn't see any prices and I've never heard of the brand before.

Are they pricey?

 

[Dynamix]

Are they pricey?

Nope. Over here you can buy them in pretty much any music (instrument) shop for very little money. Quality stuff, no bull.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Well I have mostly monoprice mic cables. I do have some of the BJC like you there. I can save you some soul searching. Monoprice cables have good connectors and good well shielded cable. They are stiffer than need be. Monoprice XLR's have very high triboelectric effect. Belden doesn't. So your Belden cables are measurably superior.

 

[Ken Newton]

I've found it very fascinating to perform the following easy experiment.

Acquire some plastic clamshell style ferrite cores large enough in inside diameter to clamp around your interconnects. These are roughly 1 inch x 2 inches. Listen with the cores located in various positions along the length of interconnects. To my ears, I hear changes in sound character with the various core positions. I wouldn't describe the effect as tuning, because the change in sound isn't predictable versus the core position. It just is different, with no seeming linear relationship. The change is relatively subtle sounding. It's nothing near dramatic. Before anyone points it out, of course, this isn't a scientific listening test. Yes, I'm open to the possibility that I'm not hearing an actual difference.

Ferrites are effective well above the audio band, typically in the MHz RF band. Ferrites also apparently retard the propogation velocity of the signal relative to air, and which I've measured as producing about a 2 ns. delay in my 1 meter interconnects, but I don't readily see how that might play an relevant role. So, even should the ferrites in my experiment be choking and damping RF pick-up and propagation in the interconnect, I'm uncertain as to why moving the cores to various posistions along the interconnect would make any audible diffence. Without broadband, high resolution spectral analysis of both the normal-mode and common-mode noise components, I could only wildly guess as to a possible mechanism. I suggest trying it for yourself and discovering what you do or don't hear.

This experiment leads me to suspect that, at least, part of the audible difference among differently constructed interconnects is due to how each handles RF intrusion. Such intrusion may be induced (antennae effect) or may be directly conducted between interconnected circuits.

 

[watchnerd]

I've found it very fascinating to perform the following easy experiment.

Acquire some plastic clamshell style ferrite cores large enough in inside diameter to clamp around your interconnects. These are roughly 1 inch x 2 inches. Listen with the cores located in various positions along the length of interconnects. To my ears, I hear changes in sound character with the various core positions. I wouldn't describe the effect as tuning, because the change in sound isn't predictable versus the core position. It just is different, with no seeming linear relationship. The change is relatively subtle sounding. It's nothing near dramatic. Before anyone points it out, of course, this isn't a scientific listening test. Yes, I'm open to the possibility that I'm not hearing an actual difference.

Ferrites are effective well above the audio band, typically in the MHz RF band. Ferrites also apparently retard the propogation velocity of the signal relative to air, and which I've measured as producing about a 2 ns. delay in my 1 meter interconnects, but I don't readily see how that might play an relevant role. So, even should the ferrites in my experiment be choking and damping RF pick-up and propagation in the interconnect, I'm uncertain as to why moving the cores to various posistions along the interconnect would make any audible diffence. Without broadband, high resolution spectral analysis of both the normal-mode and common-mode noise components, I could only wildly guess as to a possible mechanism. I suggest trying it for yourself and discovering what you do or don't hear.

This experiment leads me to suspect that, at least, part of the audible difference among differently constructed interconnects is due to how each handles RF intrusion. Such intrusion may be induced (antennae effect) or may be directly conducted between interconnected circuits.

After you did this, did you keep the ferrite cores on or remove them?

 

[Wayne A. Pflughaupt]

In my experience in pro audio and as such using XLR cables for many years, Monoprice uses cheap connectors. The female end will eventually fail. See here for details.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

 

[Thomas savage]

I tried ferrite cores on my signal cables , was happy when I took them all off.

I redistributed them though, they now reside on my mains wiring between the wall socket and the consumer unit ( breaker box) .

Won't bother with my subjective impressions but it made me feel better putting them on the mains wiring ( including my cpc) .

 

[Ken Newton]

After you did this, did you keep the ferrite cores on or remove them?

I kept them. The sound is better with them than without. My system configuration has my DAC directly connected to my power amp, so, the ferrites are probably cleaning up some sampling residue. That would not be surprising. What was surprising was that repositioning the cores along the interconnect seemed to audibly change the sound.

 

[watchnerd]

so, the ferrites are probably cleaning up some sampling residue. That would not be surprising.

Actually, I would find that surprising. The filter is supposed to remove all of that / reduce it way below audible levels.

 

[amirm]

After testing a bunch of speaker wires (see http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/), I found monoprice to be below par. It is classic cutting the corners hoping you don't notice:

The other thing is variability. Who knows what you get today versus yesterday with monoprice. Since they don't spec their cables, they could be using the next cheap set of wires they found.

I don't see any issue at all with pay for what amounts to price of a few CDs for cabling that is solid and good.

 

[watchnerd]

After testing a bunch of speaker wires (see http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/), I found monoprice to be below par. It is classic cutting the corners hoping you don't notice:

The other thing is variability. Who knows what you get today versus yesterday with monoprice. Since they don't spec their cables, they could be using the next cheap set of wires they found.

I don't see any issue at all with pay for what amounts to price of a few CDs for cabling that is solid and good.

Best Buy 12AWG the same as a coat hanger? Wow...do they use something other than copper at Best Buy?

Buy, hey, look at the Radio Shack!

 

[amirm]

Best Buy 12AWG the same as a coat hanger? Wow...do they use something other than copper at Best Buy?

The suspicion is that it is aluminum core wire or some such thing.

 

[amirm]

Buy, hey, look at the Radio Shack!

If you see it in person, it has a very high quality feel to it. It is what triggered the discussion that resulted in me doing the testing. On AVS there are a few people who roam the halls and constantly tell people to buy Monoprice. So this guy bought some and found the cables hard to strip. So went to Radio Shack and bought the cable I tested and he was surprised how much thicker it was and how much better it felt for not much more money. The monoprice people fought back so I looked at the specs and noticed that the monoprice cable was closer to 13 gauge than 12. Arguments when back and forth so I set out to do the test you see in that thread.

 

[Blumlein 88]

I've found it very fascinating to perform the following easy experiment.

Acquire some plastic clamshell style ferrite cores large enough in inside diameter to clamp around your interconnects. These are roughly 1 inch x 2 inches. Listen with the cores located in various positions along the length of interconnects. To my ears, I hear changes in sound character with the various core positions. I wouldn't describe the effect as tuning, because the change in sound isn't predictable versus the core position. It just is different, with no seeming linear relationship. The change is relatively subtle sounding. It's nothing near dramatic. Before anyone points it out, of course, this isn't a scientific listening test. Yes, I'm open to the possibility that I'm not hearing an actual difference.

Ferrites are effective well above the audio band, typically in the MHz RF band. Ferrites also apparently retard the propogation velocity of the signal relative to air, and which I've measured as producing about a 2 ns. delay in my 1 meter interconnects, but I don't readily see how that might play an relevant role. So, even should the ferrites in my experiment be choking and damping RF pick-up and propagation in the interconnect, I'm uncertain as to why moving the cores to various posistions along the interconnect would make any audible diffence. Without broadband, high resolution spectral analysis of both the normal-mode and common-mode noise components, I could only wildly guess as to a possible mechanism. I suggest trying it for yourself and discovering what you do or don't hear.

This experiment leads me to suspect that, at least, part of the audible difference among differently constructed interconnects is due to how each handles RF intrusion. Such intrusion may be induced (antennae effect) or may be directly conducted between interconnected circuits.

You would expect one meter of cable to have a propagation time of just over 3 nanoseconds. So are you saying the ferrite increased that to 5 nanoseconds at frequencies below 20 khz?

 

[Ken Newton]

Actually, I would find that surprising. The filter is supposed to remove all of that / reduce it way below audible levels.

You're assuming some typical multi-pole filter. Yes, I have experimented with various multi-pole filters, both active and passive, including some utilizing inductors. My DAC is both designed and hand built by me. The output filter is a passive single pole. My DAC features an x8 oversampling digital interolation filter, so, with CD, the first image product doesn't appear until at least 331kHz. For now, I'm satisfied with the sound.