Cable Confessions

[Blumlein 88]

After testing a bunch of speaker wires (see http://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/when-12-gauge-wire-is-not-12-gauge.3/), I found monoprice to be below par. It is classic cutting the corners hoping you don't notice:

The other thing is variability. Who knows what you get today versus yesterday with monoprice. Since they don't spec their cables, they could be using the next cheap set of wires they found.

I don't see any issue at all with pay for what amounts to price of a few CDs for cabling that is solid and good.

I am surprised at you Amir. This is like saying, "I bought a Ford Focus to pull my boat. It was lousy at pulling my boat. When Ford boasts their F150 has good towing power don't believe it."

12 gage wire and XLR's are you know rather different. I am not saying Monoprice products are universally wonderful. Their Pro Audio series wire in XLR and RCA seems pretty good. I have used bits of it over nearly 10 years and the first appears to be the same construction as the last purchased 3 months ago. They tell you the gage and type shielding which is as much or more spec than some suppliers. It is thicker and less supple than some other good inexpensive brands. I have never had a failure of any kind. Can't say the same for Hosa or GLS if one is trying to go really cheap. I've have good luck with Live Wire and MCS balanced cable as well. One can always go up to Belden or Mogami or Canare without paying too dearly.

 

[Blumlein 88]

In my experience in pro audio and as such using XLR cables for many years, Monoprice uses cheap connectors. The female end will eventually fail. See here for details.

Regards,
Wayne A. Pflughaupt

Never had the problem. Neutrik connectors have neither spring loaded balls nor the bulges to keep them tight. They are possibly a slightly larger diameter. I have quite a few Monoprice XLRs used for recording. Being an amateur recordist they have been connected and disconnected merely several dozen times instead of hundreds. If one is going to use it in a domestic audio system where they mostly get connected and left in place I doubt they'll be a problem.

Certainly if one wishes peace of mind on the issue getting cables made with Switchcraft or Neutrik isn't terribly expensive. I actually prefer Amphenol to Switchcraft with a preference for Neutrik over either.

 

[Ken Newton]

You would expect one meter of cable to have a propagation time of just over 3 nanoseconds. So are you saying the ferrite increased that to 5 nanoseconds at frequencies below 20 khz?

A roughly observed measurement (one which I didn't specify the test signal, nor the test instrument used) on which I clearly stated that I couldn't see how it might be relevant. Is that the key point you took away from my lengthy comment?

 

[Blumlein 88]

A roughly observed measurement (one which I didn't specify the test signal, nor the test instrument used) on which I clearly stated that I couldn't see how it might be relevant. Is that the key point you took away from my lengthy comment?

I really didn't take anything from your comment. Just wondering if the 2 nanoseconds was a measurement that ferrite around the cable slowed propagation by an additional 2 nanoseconds. Wire construction and materials can vary that much. Something with 90% speed of light which would probably use teflon would be a touch over 3 nanoseconds. Something else with simpler wire construction and PVC insulation could be as low as 55% speed of light and add more than 2 nanoseconds to that figure. I don't know of any reason either would make an audible difference.

 

[Ken Newton]

I really didn't take anything from your comment. Just wondering if the 2 nanoseconds was a measurement that ferrite around the cable slowed propagation by an additional 2 nanoseconds. Wire construction and materials can vary that much. Something with 90% speed of light which would probably use teflon would be a touch over 3 nanoseconds. Something else with simpler wire construction and PVC insulation could be as low as 55% speed of light and add more than 2 nanoseconds to that figure. I don't know of any reason either would make an audible difference.

If it satisfies your curiosity for detail, I just looked and realized that measurement was over a pair of 2 meter interconnects I also have, not over one of my 1 meter pairs.

 

[Blumlein 88]

If it satisfies your curiosity for detail, I just looked and realized that measurement was over a pair of 2 meter interconnects I also have, not over one of my 1 meter pairs.

So how did you do the measure (not looking to criticize just wondering)? 2 nanoseconds for 2 meters is faster than light. Yet it isn't terribly inaccurate considering the tiny time intervals being discussed. You would expect something around 7-11 nanoseconds for two meters.

Here a nice write up of measuring the effects of ferrite on audio cabling.

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/SAC0305Ferrites.pdf

Powerpoint presentation of the same material.

http://audiosystemsgroup.com/Ferrites-Ham.pdf

 

[RayDunzl]

Confession:

AC cords - Nothing special though I pick thick.
Speaker cables - thick
Preamp to Amps - 4 conductors of 24AWG lightly twisted no shield no jacket with a knock-off Lemo connector
DAC to Preamp - Neutrik XLR with two strands of AWG18 magnet wire with another strand for ground no shield no jacket
Other - various, nothing special, fer sure.
Cost: not much call it $100.

---

Assigned Penance:

Get a loom of Masterbuilt Ultra. They're the best. Since I don't have any Buds in the Biz, let's just look at MSRP.
One power cord - $17,000 (of course I would need at least 5 for the core system and a source so make it $85,000)
Speaker cable - $23,000, but I'm biwired so $35,000
Pre to amp - Let's call it an XLR - $18,000
DAC to Pre - XLR - $18,000
One Digital Source - They have a USB - $12,000 (I'd want a coax but this'll do)
Subtotal - $168,000
Whoa... Still need to attach and power my other sources.

PS: Don't ask how they work, it's a secret. Assume they just do.

---

Well, forget that.

I've got a big bag of ferrite clamps, though. Some of them already festoon my loom.

Maybe I'll clean up and throw some more at my non-problems.

 

[Sal1950]

Maybe I'll clean up and throw some more at my non-problems.

Better get busy with that Ray!
$100 worth of DIY cables gives you no cred's in the phool community.

 

[tomelex]

Better get busy with that Ray!
$100 worth of DIY cables gives you no cred's in the phool community.

Whoa there partner, DIY is serious cred. One word describes it. EXCLUSIVITY! He has it no one else does. $100K cables, lots of people have 'em, Who has exactly what the Central Scrutinizer has, NO0000000 BODY!!!!!!!

 

[Sal1950]

Who has exactly what the Central Scrutinizer has, NO0000000 BODY!!!!!!!

WooHoo, you got that right.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Whoa there partner, DIY is serious cred. One word describes it. EXCLUSIVITY! He has it no one else does. $100K cables, lots of people have 'em, Who has exactly what the Central Scrutinizer has, NO0000000 BODY!!!!!!!

Yeah this. With the suspected parts cost to retail cost of some cables I think Ray's $100 cables might be $10k cables at retail.

 

[watchnerd]

I once had a friend who raved about how much he loved these speaker cables:

After reading the description (twisted silver-coated solid copper, ~18 gauge) I decided to make my own pair.

My friend declared them identical. He praised my work, said I should write it up, etc etc.

Me? I thought they sounded like crap -- detailed? Hell yes! But it was because the entire bottom end was missing.

I never did measure the LCR to find out in what why it was so colored, but it did teach me a lesson -- yes, cables can be tone controls...if they're bad cables.

 

[amirm]

Magico uses these thin silver cables at shows. It is amazing to me how much counter-science or even counter-logic cables can be.

 

[Thomas savage]

I once had a friend who raved about how much he loved these speaker cables:

After reading the description (twisted silver-coated solid copper, ~18 gauge) I decided to make my own pair.

My friend declared them identical. He praised my work, said I should write it up, etc etc.

Me? I thought they sounded like crap -- detailed? Hell yes! But it was because the entire bottom end was missing.

I never did measure the LCR to find out in what why it was so colored, but it did teach me a lesson -- yes, cables can be tone controls...if they're bad cables.

Though negative, that a serious subjective effect.. If it's possible to screw the sound up THAT much with a pair of cables , it must be a consideration going the opposite way in terms of performance?

What makes a neutral speaker cable? Not a tone control, but how do we really know it's not 'colouring' what we hear ?

I tried swapping out my signal cabals for mogami but never got on with the results, possibly that's a bias but I'd much rather have mogami and get a new bathroom sorted so...

 

[Sal1950]

I once had a friend who raved about how much he loved these speaker cables:

Reading the description includes just about the biggest bunch of phool vomit I've heard expressed directly.

"proprietary shielding/grounding technique"
Is that the green wire of the twisted pair, hardly proprietary. I believe the same config Kimber and others have used for 25+ years. And BTW, it doesn't shield very well. In highly sensitive positions they'll hum like a $10 hooker. I have experience with both and can guarantee it.

"that adds about a half octave of bass"
That one takes balls when they and we all know that could never be backed up with a measurement. (unless it's LCR is actually acting like a low pass filter with some speaker/amp combos).

"These include Nordost Valhalla(!), Cardas Golden Reference, Audioquest Caldera, Kimber"
Kickin ass and namin names. My hat is off to them.

"WARNING: DO NOT USE ANY BREAK-IN DEVICES OF ANY KIND ON OUR WIRES! They will seriously degrade the sound."
That just about wraps up the absolute silliness there. They are definitely in the land of OZ or have been picked up by the Audiophool Borg, their minds assimilated into the Stereophile/TAS/ETC collective.....
Resistance Is Futile
(unless presenting supportable evidence is part of your bend).

What makes a neutral speaker cable? Not a tone control, but how do we really know it's not 'colouring' what we hear ?

One that doesn't alter the FR of the source, simple.

 

[RayDunzl]

The conductors in my speaker cables are only 257 thousandths of an inch in diameter, so I went ahead and biwired just to be sure.

 

[Blumlein 88]

The conductors in my speaker cables are only 257 thousandths of an inch in diameter, so I went ahead and biwired just to be sure.

So using 2 awg wire you double up to effectively 0 awg? Heck that is nearly what I would call Hawg gauge.

 

[RayDunzl]

Plus, I get to use these nice shiny lugs...

 

[Sal1950]

The conductors in my speaker cables are only 257 thousandths of an inch in diameter

Yea but are they OFC?

 

[RayDunzl]

Yea but are they OFC?

I will assume it is this:

• C11000 - also known as Electrolytic-Tough-Pitch (ETP). This is the most common copper. It is universal for electrical applications. ETP has a minimum conductivity rating of 100% IACS and is required to be 99.9% pure. It has 0.02% to 0.04% oxygen content (typical). Most ETP sold today will meet or exceed the 101% IACS specification. As with OF copper, silver (Ag) content is counted as copper (Cu) for purity purposes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-free_copper