Expensive? I just bought a MC-1 for $136 shipped fully working, $68 (~$103 shipped) for DC-1 with DD/DTS/THX and another DD only model for around $120. I plan to use them in three different rooms.I'm another hopeless nostalgic for Logic7... I had the DC1 and then the MC1, and finally succumbed to the HDMI generation with an AVR... The subsequent Lexicon products were far too rich for my blood!
Then they got Harmanised - the Lexicon brand (and its development team!) - got left to wither on the vine, Logic7 found itself on Harman AVR's for a while - and then on JBL AVR/AVP's...
But the price of entry into Logic7 (and later Logic16) capable devices, has made it difficult to seriously consider them in value for money terms.
I still think Logic7 was the bees knees for music.
Why not just get a Denon X3800H and buy a Dirac DLBC license?
The Denon can work as a processor, it has an option to disconnect the amps.
With the use of DLBC, it will beat all other processors you mentioned!
Expensive? I just bought a MC-1 for $136 shipped fully working, $68 (~$103 shipped) for DC-1 with DD/DTS/THX and another DD only model for around $120. I plan to use them in three different rooms.
The MC-1 will go in my home theater room, plugged into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 inputs (DC-1 there currently). It's a shame more AVRs don't still have 7.1 inputs. They're great for this sort of thing!
If only someone would make a 7.1->HDMI converter box, you could still work around it on other models, although the video could be a real issue as you'd need a splitter option for the source. I've only seen a stereo to HDMI box before. Tape loops, etc seem to be a relic of the past.
I don't think it's a pain to use at all once I got all the setup stuff done and matched relative levels. I bought a JTech breakout box for my Nvidia Shield, which gives me analog 2-channel and digital optical output I send to the Lexicon.Yeah, I worked with a similar setup using 7.1 analog in. It works, but it's a pain to use. That's why I ended up with the Lyngdorf unit: not sure if it's the same for DD5.1>L7 upmixing but it certainly comes close.
If you are seeking a 5.1.4 processor - the X3800 is more expensive than the equivalent Onkyo/Integra/Pioneer, especially when adding the Dirac licence fees...Why not just get a Denon X3800H and buy a Dirac DLBC license?
The Denon can work as a processor, it has an option to disconnect the amps.
With the use of DLBC, it will beat all other processors you mentioned!
You would end up with a highly complex setup, with multiple processing points, and no simple integrated means to tune or tweak your decoding... Your signal comes in over HDMI - has to get decoded, then it needs to get processed (upmix/downmix) which is where L7 comes in, then the signal (preferably in digital all the way!) - needs to be passed back to the AVR to be processed for RoomEQ... and you have issues with rate conversions along the way etc... - and you are still talking base layer only.Expensive? I just bought a MC-1 for $136 shipped fully working, $68 (~$103 shipped) for DC-1 with DD/DTS/THX and another DD only model for around $120. I plan to use them in three different rooms.
The MC-1 will go in my home theater room, plugged into my Marantz 7012's 7.1 inputs (DC-1 there currently). It's a shame more AVRs don't still have 7.1 inputs. They're great for this sort of thing!
If only someone would make a 7.1->HDMI converter box, you could still work around it on other models, although the video could be a real issue as you'd need a splitter option for the source. I've only seen a stereo to HDMI box before. Tape loops, etc seem to be a relic of the past.
Options...I don't think it's a pain to use at all once I got all the setup stuff done and matched relative levels. I bought a JTech breakout box for my Nvidia Shield, which gives me analog 2-channel and digital optical output I send to the Lexicon.
All I have to do for music on KODI is select the 7.1 input and hit play. I don't even have to change any KODI settings for 2-channel PCM like CD rips. The volume level is more or less the same.
The analog inputs work with Panorama and Mono Movie (just connect to a different input; they've got plenty of them). I'm not sure if the 44.1kHz requirements apply to the MC-1 series or not. I guess I'll find out.
The Lexicon can be set to automatically use a given mode depending on the format. I've got it set to Logic7 or 5.1 Logic7 for everything with the settings I like. I only need the optical jack for Logic7.
For everything else, there's nothing to do for either stereo or 5.1 albums of any kind except to set KODI to use 2.0/DD transcoding and DTS/DTS "Core" (It'll turn even DTS:X into core DTS without transcoding). FLAC and anything else gets turned into Dolby Digital (I assume 640kbps, which sounds pretty good for 5.1). It then literally plays everything including base tracks from Atmos albums, etc.
If someone made a breakout box with individual coaxial channel sets at 24/96, the MC-1 can take 24/96 5.1 through its expansion ports. I doubt I could tell the difference, though.
For my Zidoo player, you just set it to down mix to 5.1 and it already has an optical hack (I just ordered an AVout cable for analog for Panorama mode and Mono Logic).
You would end up with a highly complex setup, with multiple processing points, and no simple integrated means to tune or tweak your decoding... Your signal comes in over HDMI - has to get decoded, then it needs to get processed (upmix/downmix) which is where L7 comes in, then the signal (preferably in digital all the way!) - needs to be passed back to the AVR to be processed for RoomEQ... and you have issues with rate conversions along the way etc... - and you are still talking base layer only.
It's an audio rube goldberg machine!
If you want ease of use, a modern integrated setup, and with L7, JBL SDR-38 or SDP-58 are really the only current market choices.
There are some older models from Harman, Lexicon and JBL that can handle HDMI inputs - but you will lose height (so works fine for base layer only).
I sold my fully upgraded MC1 about 15 to 20 years ago ... and yes I still miss L7 - although Dolby PLII did a very decent job, sadly, it too was retired and no longer appears on current AVR/AVP's - Dolby Surround (current version) is quite good... but yes order of preference (based on unreliable audio memory!) is L7>PLII>DSur .
A number of people have said that Auro is better than DSur, and possibly better than PLII - whether it is better than L7/16 for music is an interesting question... Auro is available on many current AVR's.
Based on what evidence? I didn't see any measurements of this receiver on the Internet. Based on how poorly the RZ50 amps perform compared to competitors, I'm not optimistic.and the Onkyo has High current amps capable of handling low impedance speakers...
So you could be looking at X3800+DLBC+External amp vs RZ70+DLBC....
At present I would posit several strong indications:Based on what evidence? I didn't see any measurements of this receiver on the Internet. Based on how poorly the RZ50 amps perform compared to competitors, I'm not optimistic.
I'll take an 3800+Buckeye over the RZ70 any day of the week.
All good points to consider, but as usual, you and I never seem to agree on everything, though that should be considered normal. Below are just counter points, not that I disagree with you totally, not at all.At present I would posit several strong indications:
1) The Onkyo claim that it is a High Current design / Power Supply
2) The weight of the AVR - which typically, at least 1/3rd of the weight is the PSU
3) referring to past Onkyo/Integra AVR's of the same category, of which I have owned two
Agreed that we need to see measurements. As to your high degree of confidence, in my humble opinion, and respectfully I think your confidence is misguided, based on a few dated devices that scored very well on bench tests, that does not reflect current situations.Yes, I absolutely want to see measurements - but I have a high degree of confidence.
That may be true, but it should not be generalized, I have extensive experience in power transformers, surely we can predict current capability of transformers of the same design, say by the same manufacturers, but we could be way off the mark if we use weight to predict the same on transformers of different design and/or by different manufacturers. That is further complicated by other things that affect the size and weight of the enclosures, heat sink design, shielding (example: use of copper plates on devices such as flag ship level AVRs), steel plates for whatever reasons, additional force cooling, or not etc.).Denon has actually advertised the weight of its transformers in some of their published specs... because with a traditional transformer (rather than a switching PSU) weight is directly related to current capability....
I think you are making too many generalized statements..., though in this case I appreciate for your choice of word, namely "decent indication", thanks for that.The RZ70 at 22kg is right in the middle between the 15kg X6800 and the 32kg A1H - it is a decent indication that it should be a good High Current design.
I know you are not against anything, just feel you are biased towards Onkyo lol.., just because you have some experience you shared a few times on how some devices you owned could drive you specific speakers that have low impedance dips coincided with high phase angles while other seemingly more powerful devices could not. To that, I would say, with due respect, get over it! Don't get fixated on things because of some experience, and ignore the possibility that there might have been other factors involved in those specific scenarios/experiences.Not that I have anything against an X3800 + Buckeye combination, I am doing something very similar with my Integra+Crown... but there is something appealing about the integrated simplicity of a received doing what it is supposed to do (ie: everything!) without needing the additional cabling, power point, and space of an external amp.
With the RZ70 (and its siblings) or the A1H there really shouldn't be a need for external amps
I think @peng covers my response pretty thoroughly. The very poor performance of the RZ50 compared to the 3800 alone should make one have serious doubts about the RZ70.At present I would posit several strong indications:
1) The Onkyo claim that it is a High Current design / Power Supply
2) The weight of the AVR - which typically, at least 1/3rd of the weight is the PSU
3) referring to past Onkyo/Integra AVR's of the same category, of which I have owned two
I don't interpret the benchtests of the RZ50 as having "very poor performance" - I consider it an excellent AVP, and it's key weakness is the amps inability to handle difficult speakers (ie: low impedance) - which the X3800 suffers from as well.I think @peng covers my response pretty thoroughly. The very poor performance of the RZ50 compared to the 3800 alone should make one have serious doubts about the RZ70.
I think @peng covers my response pretty thoroughly. The very poor performance of the RZ50 compared to the 3800 alone should make one have serious doubts about the RZ70.
It only has a single sub channel... the Dirac software is fine at tuning the sub to crossover with the speakers, but it does not provide the sophisticated room node management that tools like DLBC provide... If you have more than one sub and want to do something sophisticated with them, it will need to be external.As I understand it, the Pioneer VSX-LX505 can be used an AV processor but it is not as flexible compared to other options in managing subwoofers. Slick Deals currently shows a $649 price for the Pioneer VSX-LX505 at Adorama.