From B&W MM-1 to Genelec 8010

[zutto]

hello everyone,
I am a proud (?) owner of a pair of B&W MM-1 desktop speakers, and after 14 years of honorable service, I was thinking about replacing them.
it goes without saying that this forum gave me a full picture of the current status of active monitor speakers, and I am curious to give them a try for my desktop setup.
after much browsing, and considering size requirements, I landed my eyes on Genelec 8010A, knowing full well that they can't reproduce low frequencies without distortion after a certain level.
my setup is a very common desktop computer setup, the speakers sit on the side of my monitor, forming an almost equilateral triangle; but are placed lower than my head, and are not angled towards me (they are perpendicular to the table).

so my question to you is: what can I expect from switching from a pair of Bowers & Wilkins MM-1 (directly sitting on the desk) to a pair of Genelec 8010A (with their angled desktop stands)?
I know that MM-1 have a mixed reputation, so I don't know what to expect by upgrading to a pair of Genelec, albeit small. and I have to be honest, MM-1 sound decent but if I start paying attention, it's very obvious how boxed and mushy they are (one reason why I want to upgrade).

of course if size was no option, I would have seriously considered a couple of 8331A.
but with speakers this size I would need to overhaul my desk setup, and I'd need floor stands: very expensive and cumbersome, so I am curious to know if upgrading to 8010A would still give me a noticeable improvement over my MM-1, giving me some leeway in my upgrade path.
considering they are basically the same size, 8010A would be a perfect drop-in replacement for my current setup (minus the cables).
plus, I read around they are indeed quite portentous speakers, except for the lack of bass, and I expect great things from Genelec in general after reading countless threads.

I would appreciate if any of you could give me an idea of what to expect.
thanks in advance.

 

[jonfitch]

Much wider dispersion and consistent high frequency output at off angles. I've had the MM-1s and the Formation measured and they both had pretty huge drops in output when you went over 15 degrees off-axis, which is really an accomplishment because usually you can't fuck up the integration of a 3ish inch woofer and a 1 inch tweeter unless you did something seriously wrong. The improved dispersion may or may not be extremely obvious at a fixed seating location (if you don't move your head much), but it should be obvious if you are tilting or turning your head.

That said if you have these speakers just sitting on your desktop, neither will sound ideal since vertical dispersion tends to be pretty bad with traditional dome and cone speakers. Your biggest upgrade is probably getting some riser stands (if you don't already have them).

Look at something like the Kanto SE2 or SE4s as an example of something that would help your setup quite a bit to get the tweeters closer to ear level (or just google "desktop speaker stands").

 

[uwotm8]

I landed my eyes on Genelec 8010A, knowing full well that they can't reproduce low frequencies without distortion after a certain level

I'm not sure how "small" do your B&W sound but 3" 8010 are not intended to be used as any kind of "main" and fullrange speakers. It's a compact/travel model with a severe limitations.

couple of 8331A

5" model is a whole different story and kinda no-brainer in case of "goind Genelec". "Simple" 8030 will save you some money tho.
Also keep in mind that typical talks about "speaker XX playing bigger than it size" is a common exagerration. 3" not give you 5" scale of sound.

 

[zutto]

hey thanks to both.
I am well aware that 8010A is limited, my question is more what to expect in term of sound quality going from MM-1 to 8010A.
I understand that in order to produce music you absolutely need something capable of reproducing everything correctly, but that's not my case (~15 years with MM-1 prove it).
this is a computer setup, meaning I use it to listen to virtually anything, mainly music of course, and mainly lossless.
I sometime play with DAWs but I just do it for fun, nothing serious that grants going above and beyond.

at the same time I do want to improve my listening experience, and before going full blown speakers + stands, I wanted to know if there's a noticeable improvement over my MM-1. my main complain rn with the B&W is that they sound mushy (no details), maybe it's my ears

That said if you have these speakers just sitting on your desktop, neither will sound ideal since vertical dispersion tends to be pretty bad with traditional dome and cone speakers. Your biggest upgrade is probably getting some riser stands (if you don't already have them).

as I mentioned in my post, I intend to use the official Genelec desktop stand for 8010A and I agree with you this is probably going to be the biggest upgrade.
I also know I should listen to them to get an answer to my question, but it's not easy to find a shop with 8010A in display where I live.

btw, I am open to suggestions other than Genelec, but right now I am more interested in keeping the very compact form factor, without drastically overhauling my setup.

 

[Mort]

M1 are supposedly treble heavy. You might be 'used' to that sound and think the Genelecs sound flat or dull.

How are you connecting? Would the G one be better? Are you using DSP?

 

[LTig]

as I mentioned in my post, I intend to use the official Genelec desktop stand for 8010A

I recommend small height-adjustable microphone table stands by K&M. My 8020a (as the 8010) have a matching socket at the bottom and I use the K&M 23325.

and I agree with you this is probably going to be the biggest upgrade.

This!

 

[uwotm8]

right now I am more interested in keeping the very compact form factor, without drastically overhauling my setup

Then you might consider alternatives like Adam D3V or iLoud Micro Monitor/Pro, any of which will be way less restricted in LF at least.
Buying a pair of MM Pro will even give you calibration mic "for free".

 

[zutto]

wow, thanks for helpful answers, really appreciated

M1 are supposedly treble heavy. You might be 'used' to that sound and think the Genelecs sound flat or dull.

yeah, another reason is that I want to break away from the MM-1 sound, purely out of boredom, just want to try something else (hopefully better).
they are treble heavy indeed, but I got tired of them on a whole, I'd love to step up from here.

How are you connecting? Would the G one be better? Are you using DSP?

I am looking around, possibly something from Schiit (Modius?), Focusrite (Scarlett 2i2?) or Topping (D50 III? I see they are highly ranked here). suggestions are welcome.

I recommend small height-adjustable microphone table stands by K&M. My 8020a (as the 8010) have a matching socket at the bottom and I use the K&M 23325.

awesome suggestion, I'd definitely consider them, thanks.

Then you might consider alternatives like Adam D3V or iLoud Micro Monitor/Pro,

damn, the ADAM D3V are awesome... and they have direct USB-C connectivity, plus they don't need two separate power cords. heck they come with angled stands as well, I might seriously need to reconsider. they are also the heaviest of the bunch, nice (I am a more weight, more better kind of person). does anyone know how they compare to the 8010A? I'll definitely check some comparisons.

the iLoud Micro Monitor Pro bundle with microphone is also very interesting, thanks for the recommendation.
I mentioned the 8331A because I am not going to lie, automatic room correction is something I would like to have, considering my living room geometry is a mess, and the iLoud could be an intelligent choice between the two solutions. but I am leaning more towards the ADAM D3V now

---

btw, the idea behind the Genelec 8010A developed after reading extensively this forum for days.
I got under the impression that even going with 8010A would be a huge upgrade over my MM-1.
but before pulling the trigger, I wanted to check with other forum users, possibly with the same upgrade experience (MM-1 to something else in this size).

my main issue is, what kinda of jump I can expect going from MM-1 to 8010A or ADAM D3V (with stands)? I mean soundstage, sound clarity, details etc... not necessarily bass.
am I just doomed by the size, and they all sound the same, or there is room for improvement over the MM-1?

thanks again!

 

[LTig]

Haven't heard the 8010 but my 8020a sound very good, and now with a KH750 sub sound absolutely great like a full range system (what they are).

Edit: Just listened to this at higher SPL - the raw power of the rock band is astounding:

 

[AnalogSteph]

Found a review of the MM-1s from German stereoplay mag from back in the day:

About a 75 Hz F10... pretty naff. (At least they don't drop like a rock, but that means little excursion protection either.) And yes, rather treble-happy. On a desk bumping the low mids, I'd expect kind of a V-shaped response.

Looks like even 8010As would be a step up, however I would not recommend those... they are literally as sensitive as the fairytale princess on a pea (until you find the -10 dB DIP switch, and then it's still way too much) and always hissing to some degree. I think they were designed as surround speakers in multichannel setups. The 10 dB less sensitive consumer G One would be the better option. Likewise, if you have the space for 8020/8320 (or Neumann KH80 or...) or 8030/8330/G Three, by all means consider those.

There is a whole host of speakers I would prefer over 8010As for various reasons. Even my EVE SC203s, which are far from the most attractive option nowadays (bass response is similar, treble is a bit wiggly and asking for PEQ), but at least they are dead quiet. The usual suspects that can hit 50 Hz (@0 to -3 dB) in the 3" class would be:
iLoud Micro Monitor (can be a bit hissy, analog input only)
ADAM D3V (note, analog input has lower noise than digital which is limited to 16/48, needs a firmware update to remove a treble gating issue)
iLoud Micro Monitor Pro
iLoud MTM MKII (though honestly I'm not the biggest fan of MTMs, vertical dispersion is a bit of a dog's breakfast; I'd only consider these if the MM Pro isn't cutting it in terms of level)

I mentioned the 8331A because I am not going to lie, automatic room correction is something I would like to have, considering my living room geometry is a mess, and the iLoud could be an intelligent choice between the two solutions. but I am leaning more towards the ADAM D3V now

Could you even afford (or would you be willing to splurge on) a pair of 8331As with GLM? The bunch would cost almost 4500€ here (not including desk stands, but those are the least of your worries then) and is approaching endgame nearfield monitoring. It's a rather premium option. Going with more traditional 8320s or 8330s would drop things to about 1500 or 1900, respectively.

If you are not scared of the learning curve involved when it comes to taking measurements (including MMM) and applying system-wide PEQ, that is something that works with any set of speakers. I've used my measured gear and REW, Equalizer APO and PEACE to beat everything into shape, from my K+H O110s at home to the aforementioned SC203s in the office and even the little Panasonic SB-PM01 4" bookshelves from a 25-year-old micro stereo gracing my parents' PC, oh and misc. colleagues' PC speakers as well.

 

[uwotm8]

my main issue is, what kinda of jump I can expect going from MM-1 to 8010A or ADAM D3V (with stands)? I mean soundstage, sound clarity, details etc... not necessarily bass

Honestly it's pretty hard to predict for me, I'm totally unfamiliar with MM-1.
According to my experience with bigger Adam speakers I'd expect a deep and immersive soundstage from D3V, somewhat less than usual impression of "speakerish" sound - I like that a lot. It's one of the strongest sides of both T5V and A7V; the former were unexpectedly good in terms of soundstage keeping in mind their price (exactly equal to D3Vs cost).

 

[kemmler3D]

To simply answer your question it looks like people have done this exact comparison and favored the Genelec. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bowers-and-wilkins-mm1-speakers.38097/

Not a huge surprise. I think compared to the B&W you'll find the 8010s to be cleaner, more detailed, more realistic, and probably presenting a more stable stereo image. You might also find them dull or subdued at first because they don't have those big peaks in treble that you are used to.

I'd definitely suggest 8030s or better if you can swing it. I have 8030s on desk-clamp monitor (VESA) mounts and they work great. Ear height and they don't take up desk space. Going from 8010 to 8030 is a big stride in the direction of "real speakers"... I still use subs but the bass is not pathetic without them.

Also agree the D3V is worth a look if space is a constraint. They will tend to produce more bass with a signature that's overall pretty similar to the 8010.

 

[uwotm8]

Hmm I found a very positive review of these from 2013 on ixbt.com (in Russian). FR measurement is arguably correct yet looks similar to posted above:

They actually praised the sound even regarding rather high price but the review seem very commercial so I'd be very sceptical.
OTOH some people here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bowers-and-wilkins-mm1-speakers.38097/ seem to really like it.

So I'm bet hedging (c) now : I believe that D3V will be better but can't give any guarantees, especially in a case when listener is happy with MM-1 out-of-box tuning.
Bigger speakers, however, starting from any good 5" model will be better just because.

 

[zutto]

I am starting to lean towards proper setup with floor stands, hence I can afford the bigger size.

however I would not recommend those... they are literally as sensitive as the fairytale princess on a pea

I'd definitely suggest 8030s or better if you can swing it.

Judging by all your responses, plus my experience with MM-1, I'm inclined to believe 8010A are not going to revolutionize my listening experience (and that's the aim here after ~15 years).

OTOH some people here https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/bowers-and-wilkins-mm1-speakers.38097/ seem to really like it.

I am familiar with that thread, possibly the best one about MM-1. While I am not saying MM-1 are bad, I find myself more in agreement with the post below.

As for the sound, I guess it sounds ok for something that small. But it's not neutral by any means, but I originally paid something like $350 USD for them while they were in production. I guess if you need really really tiny speakers, there isn't much out there that touches it, but for the price, you could get a much nicer set of speakers that are slightly larger.

The point here is the form factor: yes these are nice for this size, but that's the limit I think I need to overcome to make a big step up.
So, while I am sure MM-1 and 8010A are awesome speakers, I think I want some more

Could you even afford (or would you be willing to splurge on) a pair of 8331As with GLM?

Yeah, it's no joke, here in Europe I made a cart on thomann.de and yes, the whole setup with stands, GLM kit and PC DAC is around 5k€.
GLM kit is very interesting to me by going bigger, since my living room is not acoustically treated (nor I am going to treat it) and my setup is in a corner, so I'd gladly accept any help towards a better sound.

Going with 8010A is not going to be cheap as well, around 1k€ (with DAC and desktop stands).
I'll keep thinking about it some more, but eventually I'll have to pull the trigger, I'll keep you posted.

thanks for all the amazing information so far btw, really appreciated.