B&W 800 D3 vs KEF Blade. Let's discuss.

[YSC]

There are many views on this. In short, music is usually mastered for the least common denominator. The more popular the music, the lower the denominator becomes. Nowadays many engineers balance with mixcubes
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/avantone-active-mixcube

There are only a handful of studios that even attempt to do 'neutral' - they tend to produce with a full 24bit/96kHz chain and the albums lack compression. Problem is they don't sound like much on the average car radio.

For the rest, what is the point of neutrality after applying compression and filtering?
Also, what is neutrality if half of the sound is generated electronically and mastered to sound good on laptop speakers and Beats headphone?
Sure you can agree with the production engineer but the next remaster will make drastically different choices ... and why not?

Just my 2c.

I don't think that most studios target for a non neutral direct sound during mixing.

The use of mixcube or so is to ensure the music content don't too bias to the HF or Bass for it to sound nice, just making it sound ok when a consumer mainstream speaker say phone speaker still sound nice, mostly be focusing more on the midrange and the bass or so is for extra enjoyment when the bass or treble response is there. and noticeably usually they roll off the extreme highs where bad speakers usually have nasty peaks there.

As the non-neutral speakers' response are all over the place it's virtually impossible to target a response to sound best on "general bad speakers", and if so, hifi manufacturers would go bankrupt as then the $20 flee market speaker would actually be highest fidelity as most studios tuned for it to "sound right" where the hifi speakers would be dark, boomy, lack clarity... I would agree studios do those car checks or so, but usually that is to highlight those midrange problems which would be masked by nice highs and bass in a really good speaker, or target in taming the annoying high frequency peaks if it were there in some bad speakers to make it less intruding.

 

[Deleted member 30699]

I don't think this is true. From what I've seen, the vast majority of mixers do indeed aim for a neutral direct sound. Of course, there are always exceptions.

I don't think that most studios target for a non neutral direct sound during mixing.

Just for clarification: I did not say that studios target a non-neutral sound. I did say that big studios produce music that sells best with little regard to neutrality (see compression and filters) or even sound quality (see loudness wars).
When mixing/mastering music, neutrality is an abstract concept and choices are made based on the engineers experience to meet certain targets.
I don't know how many people would describe the latest CardiB or Billie Eilish record as 'neutral'.

Returning to speakers, it does not really matter if a speaker is flat or not. The moment that you put them in a room, they are not. Even million dollar studios EQ the room. Having a neutral speaker just means that it is easier to switch between speakers without needing multiple EQ profiles.
Once you EQ, just adjust the profile of your liking: neutral, BBC dip, V-shape, ...
What you need is an amplifier/speaker/room that (i) is clean (= controlled distortion) at the desired output levels once EQ is applied, (ii) lacks major directivity errors (impossible to EQ), (iii) room with reasonable reverb, and (iv) reasonable control of first reflections and some damping of the principal room modes.

I don't think that most studios target for a non neutral direct sound during mixing.
The use of mixcube or so is to ensure the music content don't too bias to the HF or Bass for it to sound nice, just making it sound ok when a consumer mainstream speaker say phone speaker still sound nice, mostly be focusing more on the midrange and the bass or so is for extra enjoyment when the bass or treble response is there. and noticeably usually they roll off the extreme highs where bad speakers usually have nasty peaks there.

As the non-neutral speakers' response are all over the place it's virtually impossible to target a response to sound best on "general bad speakers", and if so, hifi manufacturers would go bankrupt as then the $20 flee market speaker would actually be highest fidelity as most studios tuned for it to "sound right" where the hifi speakers would be dark, boomy, lack clarity... I would agree studios do those car checks or so, but usually that is to highlight those midrange problems which would be masked by nice highs and bass in a really good speaker, or target in taming the annoying high frequency peaks if it were there in some bad speakers to make it less intruding.

High fidelity is a hobby with taste and preferences. Likewise, astrophotography is about imaging pleasing pictures of stars/galaxies/nebulae and _not_ about astronomy. If your primary intent is accurate sound (re)production, you need to build a studio (room with decoupled foundations and walls, feets of accoustic materials, where you listen usually near-field and the speaker is actually secondary). Everything else is just amateur hour - pretty pictures of stars..

.. and regarding the $20 flee market speaker you may have a point - it may be the most accurate to listen to the beatles, fleetwood mac, or louis armstrong especially if it happens to be an LS5/9 or the like. This is what they had at the time
For reference, there is an entire trend in orchestral music to reproduce pieces with instruments form the same/similar time because that is considered the 'highest accuracy'.

 

[steve59]

The blades are a bit more efficient than the B&W so in that regard might be an easier load. The thing is there's speakers that look and sound very close for a third the cost so you have to figure out what you're spending the extra money for? What exactly do you want your $30k speakers to deliver that your $10k don't? neither of these speakers (or any others)are best at everything and when you find the tradeoff that matters less to you then you will have found your perfect speaker.

 

[bo_knows]

Just for clarification: I did not say that studios target a non-neutral sound. I did say that big studios produce music that sells best with little regard to neutrality (see compression and filters) or even sound quality (see loudness wars).
When mixing/mastering music, neutrality is an abstract concept and choices are made based on the engineers experience to meet certain targets.
I don't know how many people would describe the latest CardiB or Billie Eilish record as 'neutral'.

Returning to speakers, it does not really matter if a speaker is flat or not. The moment that you put them in a room, they are not. Even million dollar studios EQ the room. Having a neutral speaker just means that it is easier to switch between speakers without needing multiple EQ profiles.
Once you EQ, just adjust the profile of your liking: neutral, BBC dip, V-shape, ...
What you need is an amplifier/speaker/room that (i) is clean (= controlled distortion) at the desired output levels once EQ is applied, (ii) lacks major directivity errors (impossible to EQ), (iii) room with reasonable reverb, and (iv) reasonable control of first reflections and some damping of the principal room modes.



High fidelity is a hobby with taste and preferences. Likewise, astrophotography is about imaging pleasing pictures of stars/galaxies/nebulae and _not_ about astronomy. If your primary intent is accurate sound (re)production, you need to build a studio (room with decoupled foundations and walls, feets of accoustic materials, where you listen usually near-field and the speaker is actually secondary). Everything else is just amateur hour - pretty pictures of stars..

.. and regarding the $20 flee market speaker you may have a point - it may be the most accurate to listen to the beatles, fleetwood mac, or louis armstrong especially if it happens to be an LS5/9 or the like. This is what they had at the time
For reference, there is an entire trend in orchestral music to reproduce pieces with instruments form the same/similar time because that is considered the 'highest accuracy'.

When the rubber meets the road...

Here's my amateur hour

 

[Descartes]

When the rubber meets the road...

Here's my amateur hour

Cool room great acoustic treatment, sorry the monster cable conditioner!

 

[AudioGod66]

I recently heard the 800 D3 at a well set up home in Australia. This gentleman without exaggeration has owned 150 plus of the best speakers over the years. I have owned maybe 80? I was never a fan although while the founder was alive they did make some truly great speakers.
My expectations were low - Wow these really do sound amazing -no port farting, imaging out of this world, cabinet colouration virtually zero etc
To all the knockers if you have the room for this 800 d3 you will love it. I should add I trust the Aussie measurements of this speaker 100% and the reviewer is a man of immense integrity
Happy listening

 

[YSC]

I recently heard the 800 D3 at a well set up home in Australia. This gentleman without exaggeration has owned 150 plus of the best speakers over the years. I have owned maybe 80? I was never a fan although while the founder was alive they did make some truly great speakers.
My expectations were low - Wow these really do sound amazing -no port farting, imaging out of this world, cabinet colouration virtually zero etc
To all the knockers if you have the room for this 800 d3 you will love it. I should add I trust the Aussie measurements of this speaker 100% and the reviewer is a man of immense integrity
Happy listening

I doubt it, have demoed in a few showrooms which have varying size an it sounded meh to me everytime.... and it seems that for 150+ best speakers it seems like translate to me "none is really great", as I assume he have 40 years being able to acquire the "best" (or better say, high end?) he still have to change a pair of speaker every season. even when gear acquistion syndrome kicks in I can't imagine even half that amount if any set really makes him feels sounding impressive and suits all music. It seems like there are always something "wrong" to "really wrong" for each pair so after a few months he decided to try another pair, and that's counting ordering high end speakers can have them delivered and setup in a day like a PC, which I believe isn't the case.

 

[ahofer]

This gentleman without exaggeration has owned 150 plus of the best speakers over the years

Yeesh, talk about the treadmill.

 

[bkatbamna]

The earlier B&W 801s were more neutral but more recently, B&W has decided to adopt a "brand sound" that offers slightly exaggerated mid-bass and mid-treble. I'd take the Blades every time.

 

[Descartes]

The earlier B&W 801s were more neutral but more recently, B&W has decided to adopt a "brand sound" that offers slightly exaggerated mid-bass and mid-treble. I'd take the Blades every time.

Agreed coming from 800D2!

 

[ahofer]

Hey @AudioGod66 maybe go crawl back under whatever rock you came from and take that mouth with you.

 

[YSC]

Hey @AudioGod66 maybe go crawl back under whatever rock you came from and take that mouth with you.

I would just ignore the assults, I don't understand what makes one act like that when speaking logical doubt.

 

[ahofer]

Seriously a 100 % truthful report of sound quality and we have the US Fairy F--K routine it's hilarious

I don't even know what you are arguing about, but the way you are doing it suggests you are about six and it is past your bedtime.

 

[BDWoody]

I don't even know what you are arguing about, but the way you are doing it suggests you are about six and it is past your bedtime.

I helped him find the door. Maybe a diaper change is in order.

 

[fpitas]

We barely knew him.

Still, that was enough.

 

[AdamG]

We barely knew him.

Still, that was enough.

We knew enough…..

 

[YSC]

@bandit actually I am curious what did you ended up buying

 

[MaxBuck]

What is it about KEFs and B&Ws that trolls post incessant "which one?" threads about them?

 

[Descartes]

When the rubber meets the road...

Here's my amateur hour

You significant other is extremely understanding or you just have a dog! Cool room!

 

[bo_knows]

You significant other is extremely understanding or you just have a dog! Cool room!

Thanks! Haha, no dog here. I told my wife that I need one room in the house for HT duty. It use to be an office and I repurpose the space. She is not really thrilled with the look of it and call's it a Circus. LOL. Yes, I'm pushing the envelope but when she sits down and watches "The Walking Dead" or some other favorite NETFLIX show, all the complaining stops. LOL.
In a "perfect world", my room would have extra 2 feet on each wall, and room treatments would be built into a false wall and mostly covered besides some diffusers. The primary speakers would be the KEF Blade 2 and LS50 meta for surrounds.