B&W 800 D3 vs KEF Blade. Let's discuss.

[richard12511]

The LSX, LS50, blade, and blade 2 are point audio sources in contrast to the R and reference lines.
Adding base drivers to the ls50 one ends up with something like the blade. Of course, the price gap is too wide.
Maybe we'll see a cross of the ls50 and their microsub?

Many of the speakers in the R and Reference lines are also virtual point sources(coax mid/tweeter with equal numbers of bass drivers on top/bottom).

 

[thewas]

Many of the speakers in the R and Reference lines are also virtual point sources(coax mid/tweeter with equal numbers of bass drivers on top/bottom).

In practise the bass drivers don't even need necessarily to be symmetrical for that (see R3) as long as the drivers spacing is quite lower (usually less than 1/4 to 1/2) of the crossover frequency.

 

[richard12511]

In practise the bass drivers don't even need necessarily to be symmetrical for that (see R3) as long as the drivers spacing is quite lower (usually less than 1/4 to 1/2) of the crossover frequency.

Good to know. I sold my JTR 210s(coax horn with 2 woofers below) a month ago or so, but when I had them here to compare to the 212s(coax horn with 1 woofer on top/bottom), I found the 212s always imaged a bit tighter. Very likely just expectation bias, though, as I expected that going in when I purchased the 212s(I purchased the 210s a year before).

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

i dont think the point source are that important, also im pretty sure this is aluminum unlike the plastic in the blades (?)

I see many owners talking about the adventages of their ls50 because of that point source.... the coax+woofers are point source too but the coax driver work best in the 400hz-2xxxhz, that uniq doing the mid bass isnt a good idea, i mean you can't cross the ls50Meta even at 300hz...

 

[Descartes]

Yes. They buy them at the price dealers buy.

So basically 45to 50 points off MSRP! Not a bad deal too bad the rest of us can’t get such a deal

 

[preload]

It seems a lot of people, including me would like to see something like that. Also, we will see if B&W can change the appearance of their 800 series of speakers, or they are "locked-in" like Porsche with their 911.

If there ever was a company that needed to change the appearance of its speakers, it's Genelec.

 

[Deleted member 30699]

Many of the speakers in the R and Reference lines are also virtual point sources(coax mid/tweeter with equal numbers of bass drivers on top/bottom).

Depends what you mean by point source.
My take has been that a point source speaker behaves the same horizontally and vertically. For example, the ls50 (see measurements on this site), lacks cancellations if you move off axis vertically.

 

[YSC]

Depends what you mean by point source.
My take has been that a point source speaker behaves the same horizontally and vertically. For example, the ls50 (see measurements on this site), lacks cancellations if you move off axis vertically.

My take is point source is important until to frequencies where localization isn't a problem anymore, and in low enough frequencies the location difference don't have cancellation so that providing a sweet spot is a plus, of course no one ask you to have a point source till the lowest frequencies

 

[YSC]

It seems a lot of people, including me would like to see something like that. Also, we will see if B&W can change the appearance of their 800 series of speakers, or they are "locked-in" like Porsche with their 911.

well, if they can do what Porsche can do with the 911, I am really fine for them, Porsche can do 911 GT2 in fastest road car on nurburgring for quite some time, surpassing most Ferrari, Lambo and Mclaren, while B&W seems fallen behind the top guys quite a bit

 

[richard12511]

If there ever was a company that needed to change the appearance of its speakers, it's Genelec.

I like the look of the Ones in white, but none of the square box models. Definitely not on B&W's level, though.

I couldn't disagree more with the post you quoted. 800D3 is my favorite speaker ever, aesthetically, so I really hope it doesn't change.

I wonder if the directivity issues couldn't be fixed by a smaller midrange driver? I really love the "open baffle pod" look of the mid and tweeter and would be sad to see them go to a more traditional waveguided tweeter(even if it performed better). In light of Floyd Toole's recent comments, I'm wondering if simply using a smaller diameter midwoofer could fix most of the directivity problems the D3 shows. The frequency response issues concern me less, as they're easy to EQ, and (imo) more subject to personal taste.

I'm curious to see where they will go with the D4, particularly because of the new management. The obviously have the resources to design basically anything they want.

 

[YSC]

I like the look of the Ones in white, but none of the square box models. Definitely not on B&W's level, though.

I couldn't disagree more with the post you quoted. 800D3 is my favorite speaker ever, aesthetically, so I really hope it doesn't change.

I wonder if the directivity issues couldn't be fixed by a smaller midrange driver? I really love the "open baffle pod" look of the mid and tweeter and would be sad to see them go to a more traditional waveguided tweeter(even if it performed better). In light of Floyd Toole's recent comments, I'm wondering if simply using a smaller diameter midwoofer could fix most of the directivity problems the D3 shows. The frequency response issues concern me less, as they're easy to EQ, and (imo) more subject to personal taste.

I'm curious to see where they will go with the D4, particularly because of the new management. The obviously have the resources to design basically anything they want.

I don't think so, as directivity problem usually happens as tweeter beaming which kind of suddenly narrowed HF off axis

 

[richard12511]

I don't think so, as directivity problem usually happens as tweeter beaming which kind of suddenly narrowed HF off axis

A smaller mid would start beaming at a higher frequency. Assuming the same crossover frequency to the tweeter, this should lead to a smoother transition to the tweeter, and thus a smoother overall dispersion pattern, at least from what I understand.

 

[bo_knows]

B&W 800 series are gone from the Grapevine, TX Best Buy store! Apparently, refresh is coming this fall.
Big blades took the 800D3 spot and sounded very good. There was little too much bass for my taste but the overall sound was very neutral. The amount of money for the whole system was out there. LOL. In my opinion, big blades are not the easiest speaker to properly set up in the room. Walked away thinking how important is the room dimensions, treatments, and DSP since my smaller room had a more accurate bass than this room. Grace Jones's voice though was spot on. Speakers sounded almost boring but nothing was missing.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

[QUOTE=" Speakers sounded almost boring but nothing was missing. View attachment 144901[/QUOTE]
For me thats when the speakers sounds the best, keep hearing that system 2 weeks and you never gonna back again to these '' fun '' sounds, and when you hear again that '' fun '' you will miss the balance

 

[preload]

[QUOTE=" Speakers sounded almost boring but nothing was missing. View attachment 144901

For me thats when the speakers sounds the best, keep hearing that system 2 weeks and you never gonna back again to these '' fun '' sounds, and when you hear again that '' fun '' you will miss the balance[/QUOTE]

Speak for yourself. "Boring" is how I would describe my Genelecs, Revel m126Be when I had them, and my KEF LSX. I would rather listen to my live, dynamic, "wow I'm really there" B&W 802D's any day.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

For me thats when the speakers sounds the best, keep hearing that system 2 weeks and you never gonna back again to these '' fun '' sounds, and when you hear again that '' fun '' you will miss the balance

Speak for yourself. "Boring" is how I would describe my Genelecs, Revel m126Be when I had them, and my KEF LSX. I would rather listen to my live, dynamic, "wow I'm really there" B&W 802D's any day.

I didn't write the boring thing, if you read your msg was a '' quote '' in there

But to be honest, i don't find any '' live '' thing in the sound from a tweeter like bw, a huge peak of 5dB in 10khz only hurt my ears and make everything sound incorrectly... But some people like that... and i can EQ them if i like the speaker

 

[YSC]

For me thats when the speakers sounds the best, keep hearing that system 2 weeks and you never gonna back again to these '' fun '' sounds, and when you hear again that '' fun '' you will miss the balance

Speak for yourself. "Boring" is how I would describe my Genelecs, Revel m126Be when I had them, and my KEF LSX. I would rather listen to my live, dynamic, "wow I'm really there" B&W 802D's any day.[/QUOTE]
Somehow I don't get it. If some music being honestly reproduced sounded boring, that should be the problem of the mix itself... say a lack of bass response and not the fault of a speaker

 

[YSC]

B&W 800 series are gone from the Grapevine, TX Best Buy store! Apparently, refresh is coming this fall.
Big blades took the 800D3 spot and sounded very good. There was little too much bass for my taste but the overall sound was very neutral. The amount of money for the whole system was out there. LOL. In my opinion, big blades are not the easiest speaker to properly set up in the room. Walked away thinking how important is the room dimensions, treatments, and DSP since my smaller room had a more accurate bass than this room. Grace Jones's voice though was spot on. Speakers sounded almost boring but nothing was missing. View attachment 144901

It looked nice! but can I say my geek dream is to have the blades, maybe with/without one sub, and fit in the middle a 60" TV and a PS5 to be my gaming & music station

 

[Deleted member 30699]

Somehow I don't get it. If some music being honestly reproduced sounded boring, that should be the problem of the mix itself... say a lack of bass response and not the fault of a speaker

There are many views on this. In short, music is usually mastered for the least common denominator. The more popular the music, the lower the denominator becomes. Nowadays many engineers balance with mixcubes
https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/avantone-active-mixcube

There are only a handful of studios that even attempt to do 'neutral' - they tend to produce with a full 24bit/96kHz chain and the albums lack compression. Problem is they don't sound like much on the average car radio.

For the rest, what is the point of neutrality after applying compression and filtering?
Also, what is neutrality if half of the sound is generated electronically and mastered to sound good on laptop speakers and Beats headphone?
Sure you can agree with the production engineer but the next remaster will make drastically different choices ... and why not?

Just my 2c.

 

[richard12511]

There are only a handful of studios that even attempt to do 'neutral' - they tend to produce with a full 24bit/96kHz chain and the albums lack compression. Problem is they don't sound like much on the average car radio.

I don't think this is true. From what I've seen, the vast majority of mixers do indeed aim for a neutral direct sound. Of course, there are always exceptions.