Audiophiliac gives Audio Science Review channel a plug

[amirm]

It does take "wealth" to produce NFS measurements.

Let me add a sincere thanks to you for the absolute properness you show in your video. Every one starts with giving credit to all the forums that allow links to your videos. You are providing reciprocal value. We link to your videos and you verbally return the favor. It all feels fair and proper so no concern whatsoever. It is the one-way relationships that cause problems.

 

[jtwrace]

No, not like me. I am incredibly careful to make sure sources of funding do not in any way taint what I do and what I represent. Whether this is in optics or reality. How you earn that money matters. When members didn't want me to use Amazon sponsorships, I didn't. End of story. Yet Erin uses such. How do we equate these two efforts?

Of course he is welcome to have whatever approach he wants. My point originally was that with all the commercialization he is doing, there is no way to make a straight face argument that he is better than Steve G. I actually don't know if Steve even does sponsored links. If not, then he is actually ahead of Erin in his "purity" of approach.

I just checked and Steve uses Patreon. So you're saying if Erin got rid of his affiliate links and used Patreon instead that would be better in your eyes? Is that because it's more supporting what one is doing and not direct product support (i.e. this speaker measures and sounds great so buy it from here)?

 

[jtwrace]

Let me add a sincere thanks to you for the absolute properness you show in your video. Every one starts with giving credit to all the forums that allow links to your videos. You are providing reciprocal value. We link to your videos and you verbally return the favor. It all feels fair and proper so no concern whatsoever. It is the one-way relationships that cause problems.

Thanks for that!

 

[USER]

I really do hope that you two can calm down and come to an amicable understanding of your working relationship and that Erin continues posting on this site. Let's not kid ourselves, this site offers a lot of visibility, unprecedented for this level of discourse if I am not wrong, so let's not have things get out of control and have someone find himself left outside in a March Audio type situation. That really would be bad for everyone as Erin's work is absolutely excellent.

Erin, understand that you both are strong-headed--you kind of have to be to do this work in public and, obviously, its part of the science culture for better or worse--and that you yourself have come across as a bit cocky when Amir has offered his help setting things up. I don't know what happened behind the scenes but he always seemed supportive in public. Understand that he has got to be the most scrutinized reviewer to have ever published such information (Can you imagine Atkinson being able to handle this site? Having Fremer as your lightning rod is a nice perk.), so maybe you touched a sore spot. You simply don't have to deal with the shit he does, even here. Also remember that Amir followed through with the bass response issue that you were fine leaving as is, so perhaps that is one reason he was upset by the "accurate" comment. Whatever it is, I hope you both come to an understanding and continue on this path in good working terms.

Finally, as a commie, I do believe that commercial sponsorships pervert everything eventually, no matter how well-intentioned. That said, this site is a unicorn and it's sad to believe that there really won't be anyone in Amir's position to do something like at this level and in his terms again any time soon. That's society's fault.

 

[Blaspheme]

Gotcha, and I 100% understand your reasoning and why you stand by it.

Just remember in your video for HiFi Summit (can’t recall if the main video or the after-video) that I think it was Joe that mentioned how you come off a lot less abrasive on video vs text. I for instance would not prefer Erin feel like he is being is run off the forum and decide to no longer post here (but again, I understand your reaction to Erin stating he provides the most accurate data).

I do love War (the band). And Four Cornered Room holds up rather well. I also enjoy this version of the same sentiment:

 

[MZKM]

have someone find himself left outside in a March Audio type situation.

He kinda did that to himself; in his post about being banned, I entered that thread with hope, but in trying to help him see his attitude from the outside looking him, his replies to me were very childish (I’m a high school teacher for remedial math, and I face palmed more from his replies than from my students).

____________________
That tangent aside, I fully agree that I don’t want anyone driven away.

 

[Blaspheme]

Yes, very much so. So much that I use the same linear scale in my AP measurements for headphones. Log compresses scales and emphasizes the wrong thing. Take this DT880 review I just posted: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ynamic-dt-880-600-ohm-review-headphone.24694/

Here are the two views of the distortion graph:

View attachment 138813

Notice how revealing the left graph is as far as where the problem areas is, i.e. the low frequencies. The dB log scale on the other hand, emphasizes the high frequencies by showing them prominently making any such interpretation much harder.

If we needed to see the peaks of the distortion, then log is useful but in the above analysis, it doesn't matter once it blows the top of the chart. But just in case, I do show the log version of the distortion in absolute scale:

View attachment 138816

Sometimes I find this latter presentation to be more useful but other times, the previous linear one gives the story so much better. Imagine trying to memorize what is good or bad in the second graph. It is hard whereas in the first, as soon as you see the lines shoot up above the top, you know you have a high distortion transducer.

I literally spent days trying to figure out how to present the data in a way that had quick meaning and kept failing until I landed on the above discovery of showing THD+N as a linear percent.

Thank you for the explanation and examples. Personally I find the dB THD under FR the easiest to interpret (perhaps because my perception tends to be visual/spatial rather than numerical*). But it's very useful to cover THD behaviour as levels increase, so those two graphical representations complement each other.

*edit: to elaborate, to me, the linear graph (RHS on the post I quoted #129) looks like catastrophic breakup, but 1-5% distortion doesn't sound like that over loudspeakers (the example was headphones but I think you use the same scale) nor 5-10% distortion (off the chart) at low frequencies. Of course 0.1-1% is better, especially in midrange and treble. But if you read numbers as primary and visual/spatial as secondary, then your impression from the graph may not be the same as mine. Incidentally, when preparing reports for my client base, I discovered years ago that some people are so primarily textual (lawyers, commonly) that they don't even look at the graphs. That was a surprise. Not many of those here, I expect.

 

[napilopez]

I will just say that I watched the video last night before this argument came up and... I really don't see how anything Erin said in the video as a dig at Amir. I didn't agree with everything Erin said or how it was said, but I think it needed to be said. Moreover, if I had to rank all the reviewers the video was targeted at, Amir would probably be last lol.

Let's keep things in perspective. Amir and Erin both provide the best public speaker measurements in the world. It's not even close.

AudioXpress does have NFS data too via Warkwyn, but we don't get to literally download the data ourselves to explore or have deep discussions about. Audioholics and I provide spins, but they're quasi-anechoic and not as detailed or repeatable.

Erin saying he he provides the 'most accurate' AKA best measurements (let's not get caught up in semantics) , I don't see how that's a dig at Amir. They're both using the same system. Accuracy is pretty much the same, and Erin has mentioned ASR several times on his channel. Erin saying his measurements are the most accurate does not make Amir's less accurate. Any differences are splitting hairs.

Even if Erin does believe his measurements are the 'best...' does that matter? Shouldn't that be the goal of any objective reviewer? To provide the best data they can in the best way they can?

No one's ever going to agree on what graphs should and shouldn't be present in a review. I really, really hate polar maps for instance. I think they're dumb and should be banned. (Note: exaggeration). Likewise, I think distortion measurements often do more harm than good.

And yet, though I don't have an NFS, I also go through great pains to present the data I do have in a way I think is accessible and useful. Everything from the colors I chose, to the scaling I use. I even used advanced space age acoustic science to come up with the incredible innovation of the horizontal ERDI curve *insert applause here*. I expect full royalties upon it's implementation in CTA-2034Z

Point is we're all doing our best, and naturally we have our preferences on how to go about reviews. That doesn't invalidate the work of others.

 

[Blaspheme]

... Can you imagine Atkinson being able to handle this site?

JA is always articulate/measured/professional in his posts here (and there) so I think he'd be fine.

 

[Blaspheme]

I will just say that I watched the video last night before this argument came up and... I really don't see how anything Erin said in the video as a dig at Amir. I didn't agree with everything Erin said or how it was said, but I think it needed to be said. Moreover, if I had to rank all the reviewers the video was targeted at, Amir would probably be last lol.

Let's keep things in perspective. Amir and Erin both provide the best public speaker measurements in the world. It's not even close.

AudioXpress does have NFS data too via Warkwyn, but we don't get to literally download the data ourselves to explore or have deep discussions about. Audioholics and I provide spins, but they're quasi-anechoic and not as detailed or repeatable.

Erin saying he he provides the 'most accurate' AKA best measurements (let's not get caught up in semantics) , I don't see how that's a dig at Amir. They're both using the same system. Accuracy is pretty much the same, and Erin has mentioned ASR several times on his channel. Erin saying his measurements are the most accurate does not make Amir's less accurate. Any differences are splitting hairs.

Even if Erin does believe his measurements are the 'best...' does that matter? Shouldn't that be the goal of any objective reviewer? To provide the best data they can in the best way they can?

No one's ever going to agree on what graphs should and shouldn't be present in a review. I really, really hate polar maps for instance. I think they're dumb and should be banned. (Note: exaggeration). Likewise, I think distortion measurements often do more harm than good.

And yet, though I don't have an NFS, I also go through great pains to present the data I do have in a way I think is accessible and useful. Everything from the colors I chose, to the scaling I use. I even used advanced space age acoustic science to come up with the incredible innovation of the horizontal ERDI curve *insert applause here*. I expect full royalties upon it's implementation in CTA-2034Z

Point is we're all doing our best, and naturally we have our preferences on how to go about reviews. That doesn't invalidate the work of others.

I also read Erin's "most accurate" as loose vernacular, much like Amir's defence of "any/some/every" in the challenge thread. If I hadn't come across that video via this thread, I wouldn't have thought of ASR as a target of criticism.

 

[napilopez]

I also read Erin's "most accurate" as loose vernacular, much like Amir's defence of "any/some/every" in the challenge thread. If I hadn't come across that video via this thread, I wouldn't have thought of ASR as a target of criticism.

Yeah, I watched it before this thread, but same. And again, every reviewer should be striving to provide what they believe is the best, most useful data. Erin and Amir both have the NFS and have worked out pretty much all the quirks AFAIK so by default they're already the top tier.

 

[raif71]

 

[q3cpma]

Finally, as a commie

I'm sorry.

 

[q3cpma]

You can easily see the effects of that in distortion tests. If levels don't increase then THD% climbs way high. Here is a recent example: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ifier-s2000-pro-review-powered-monitor.24255/

This is amplifier clipping, not really the same thing, no?

 

[q3cpma]

As to being in it for education and not money, please.... You will quit your job in a minute if the youtube revenues started to rival that work as it has for Steve G. and many other youtubers.

Unless this happens, best not to try to predict the future in such a haphazard fashion.

You are in absolutely the same game as he. You have commercialized the speaker measurements to an extreme with the same business model and plan as Steve. Sponsorships. Ads everywhere. I can't watch your video above without banner ads even though I have ad blocker on.

You can't seriously say that without being viewed as the one stirring it. One is providing objective data he can't easily lie about/completely forge and has no obvious conflict of interest with the models/brands he reviews; the first fact forces him to show when something is shit (and not à la Stereophile, where the measurement section is mostly the damage control corner) and the second allows him to do so; unless you have proof that models that perform badly are simply "forgotten" and not posted about.

If you think that someone who buys a Klippel NFS is desperate in any way for money, we must not live in the same universe.

Unless proven otherwise, I stay convinced that Erin's intention are purely hobby related, and I would never try to compare him with the den of thieves that reviewers are without a strong reason to do so; way more insulting that anything I could imagine, really.

 

[Dgob]

I had not heard of him before but just watched a few of his videos. He does bring good technical depth to topics but is not afraid of moving past what is supported and proper stance of audio science and proper engineering. As such, you can easily be misled by what he is saying. His great British accent and eloquent speaking can appeal to one's softer side to believe what one should not.

As a Brit who is not impressed by the accent, I totally agree that some of his advice is extremely subjective and should be detached from the more formal/objective aspects of his commentary. I do enjoy some of his technical presentations, but hear echoes of the mainstream audio journalism in his suggestions and assessments.

 

[abdo123]

One is providing objective data he can't lie about and has no conflict of interest with the models/brands he reviews

a reviewer always have a conflict of interest with the brands he reviews, if he produces negative reviews that generate the brand no revenue then the reviewer will not receive gear to review in the future, therefore effectively reducing their content/income.

Since measurments are inherently primed to showcase the negatives about the product (what deviates from the ideal) the situation becomes much worse, you only recieve equipment from companies that are very sure of how their product performs or follow the mantra of 'any publicity is good publicity' .

 

[q3cpma]

a reviewer always have a conflict of interest with the brands he reviews, if he produces negative reviews that generate the brand no revenue then the reviewer will not receive gear to review in the future, therefore effectively reducing their content/income.

That's why my first "one" referred to Erin, who doesn't directly receive from brands, but mostly from people and B&H (which sells almost all brands); he did also explicitely specify that B&H doesn't put any restriction on his reviews.

 

[abdo123]

That's why my first "one" referred to Erin, who doesn't directly receive from brands, but mostly from people and B&H (which sells almost all brands); he did also explicitely specify that B&H doesn't put any restriction on his reviews.

I don't think you (or anyone but Erin himself) can make such statements. I'm already aware of multiple instances where he collaborated with brands and manufacturers publicly.

 

[q3cpma]

I don't think you (or anyone but Erin himself) can make such statements. I'm already aware of multiple instances where he collaborated with brands and manufacturers publicly.

In any case, best not to assume anything without proof. Though you're right that Erin should post a little disclaimer about speaker provenance and neutrality in the written reviews.