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Audiophiliac gives Audio Science Review channel a plug

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Blaspheme

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I had not heard of him before but just watched a few of his videos. He does bring good technical depth to topics but is not afraid of moving past what is supported and proper stance of audio science and proper engineering. As such, you can easily be misled by what he is saying. His great British accent and eloquent speaking can appeal to one's softer side to believe what one should not.
Damn the Tories. Remember Boston! :)

There may be some sarcasm here. Hard to be sure.
 
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don'ttrustauthority

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Damn the Tories. Remember Boston! :)

There may be some sarcasm here. Hard to be sure.
In the end, we're all former subjects of the Crown, destined to defer for no good reason to a 'high class' British accent.
 

Snarfie

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Lately i'm watching regular for some weeks now to The Audiophiliac channel not because hé is (listening) testing Gear or advocating vinyl now an than. Hé has an excellent music taste imo new an old stuff. listening now to Sly An the the Family Stone - There is a riot going on for instance great recording an music also lot of great unknow recordings like The Cowboy Junkies - The Trinity Sessions. So i skip his listening test part an searching for his audio/music recommendations.
 
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phoenixdogfan

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In all fairness subjective reviewing has its place. If we're talking about speakers, then it's understandable different reviewers are going to hear real differences among them, and may rank order those speakers differnently even if heard in the same room at level matched volumes b/c of personal preferences around dynamic range or directivity width, etc.

Irrespective of Harmon score, I, for one, find it perfectly reasonable, for example that more (most?) audiophiles would prefer to listen to a system based around Revel Studio 2s than, say, Neumann KH 80's. That's an example where the question "have you listened to each of them?" seems to me to have validity.

But when that same question is applied to other components from DACs to power amps all the way down to power cords, and is used as a raison d'etre for glowing reviews of boxes of dirt (pardon me, grounding earth) costing a cool 10k USD, or for cable reviews which pimp mythical, transcendent difference which justify pricing a piece of wire the same as a Bentley. then calling out the perp (paron me, reviewer) seems like the least we could do because science (extremely well understood and universally accepted science) proves their claims could not possibly be true.
 

terfenol-D

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The audio mags are not meant for making purchase decisions. They are selling a fantasy, much like the in-flight magazines full of reports from fancy resorts that nobody travelling in economy could possibly afford. Nobody fantasises about owning a Toyota.

You’ve clearly never been on Tacomaworld.com
 

MakeMineVinyl

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I think his videos have gotten to the point where his script is basically the same in each video with only the name of the particular product inserted.
 

richard12511

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Lately i'm watching regular for some weeks now to The Audiophiliac channel not because hé is (listening) testing Gear or advocating vinyl now an than. Hé has an excellent music taste imo new an old stuff. listening now to Sly An the the Family Stone - There is a riot going on for instance great recording an music also lot of great unknow recordings like The Cowboy Junkies - The Trinity Sessions. So i skip his listening test part an searching for his audio/music recommendations.

He seems like a nice guy, and I enjoy his personality, but his music recommendations are the most useful thing I get from his videos.

Really, I think reviewers should stick to the same songs when reviewing speakers, but as someone in search of new music, I enjoy that he doesn't.
 

richard12511

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Irrespective of Harmon score, I, for one, find it perfectly reasonable, for example that more (most?) audiophiles would prefer to listen to a system based around Revel Studio 2s than, say, Neumann KH 80's. That's an example where the question "have you listened to each of them?" seems to me to have validity.

Studio2 vs KH80? I agree that most people would enjoy the Revels more. Studio2 vs KH420 would be a more apt comparison imo.
 

dfuller

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Studio2 vs KH80? I agree that most people would enjoy the Revels more. Studio2 vs KH420 would be a more apt comparison imo.
yeah that seems like an odd comparison. Studio2s are 12-16x as expensive as KH80s, and while the KH80s are certainly decent I doubt they really compare just in terms of LF extension and SPL capabilities. The 420s are closer in size and price but are still quite a bit smaller.
 

gsp1971

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I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

When I started doing videos I started off with the "gung ho" attitude of telling people what was right and what was wrong. Two or three videos in I realized that I was an a$$hole for doing that. We don't need condescension and belittling. What's the point? Because people who appreciate objective data might get a chuckle out of it? If your point is simply bouncing your opinions around in an echo chamber and not *truly* educating those who are uninformed then that's fine. But if the goal is to educate and explain then I think tactics really need to change. That old "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar" adage really does ring true in a case like this.

I realize I may sound like I'm giving a "from the soapbox" speech here. But I think you guys (most of you, at least) understand my true nature is to inform and educate and to not drive the wedge between camps even further. I'm just trying to be the voice of reason. Another couple adages fit well here: "with great power comes great responsibility" as well as "carpe diem". Steve has a huge fanbase of subjective-oriented folks and has given this group a chance to be seen by them. Let's welcome those with differing views so they can maybe understand what the data is about rather than push them away without ever realizing it. The bottom line is Steve gave a shoutout to ASR (regardless of how you feel about him or his message). People may go "hmmm, what's that about". They come here, see a bunch of guys talking bad about people of their ilk and go "oh, yea, this ain't for me" and then leave. That opportunity is squandered.

/my $0.02

Erin, you do have a point. And the 'neutral', educative stance both you and amirm have adopted in your websites is commendable.
BUT, there is a but.

If you have been following these reviewers and their reviews over the last 10-20 years, you will know that Steve Guttenberg (aka The Audiophiliac) is among a group of reviewers who can be considered 'influential', meaning people follow him and his opinion. When he says 'this is my product of the year', I assume that product sells well. The same can be said about, for example, Stereophile's Recommended Components.
I have no doubt that both Steve Guttenberg and the folks at Stereophile are indeed very knowledgeable, with many years experience in the audio business.

Yet, their reviews are not consistent over time and this is what confuses readers. They do not have a reference, a benchmark to compare products to. A pair of speakers that costs $1,000 can be product of the year or a Recommended Component. A $5,000 pair of speaker can also be a product of the year or a Recommended Component. A $10,000 speaker can also be a Recommended Component in the same list in the same year.

What is the difference among the three? Should the customer buy the $1,000 speaker, the $5,000 speaker or the $10,000 speaker?
If the $1,000 speaker receives 5 stars in a review and the $10,000 speaker received 5 stars in a review, which one is better? Which one should me, the non-knowledgeable customer, go and buy? AND WHY?

This is what they have failed to do consistently over the years. Knowledgeable and respected as they are, I cannot help but wonder how many customers have purchased products based on their reviews only to be disappointed?

So, even though nobody wants to create a 'them vs. us' schism, these reviewers should be more consistent regarding what they recommend to consumers and be responsible enough to explain WHY they recommend the product providing enough proof, even subjective one.

In that context, the criticism they receive is justified in my opinion, but I agree it needs to be constructive as well.

My $0.02 as well, with all due respect towards all parties.
 
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Mystical Boar

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Whenever two objects interact, they exert equal and opposite forces on each other. Given how much absurdity there is in the audio community, it's only natural that the opposite side answers with irony and edginess. There's only so much patience you can muster if you're not an android. If you ask me, I hate faux politeness as it reminds me of all these corporate mails in the vein of "Thank you for contacting us, we're sorry you encountered a problem with our product. A professionally trained ape is already looking to it. Please don't hesitate to contact us again and ask further questions".

As for Steve, I'm pretty sure he wanted to render himself more good-willed and reasonable, even though ASR probably annoys him.
 

alek19000

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At first, He may make a point to me ,that he is a human with human feelings and subjective opinions are worthy and helpful as or more important than measurements.

Then I think again, he is not me, his experience and opinions can't TRANSFER to me or to what I will feel .
At the end of the day , it is me to pay and get an speaker or dac , then I can start to feel what it is.
So, before I pay, I should try it in a store or at some friend's ,and check what Amir to say . At least , Amir can't lie, and his measurements are gonna transfer universally.
 
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Mystical Boar

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Imagine you have a passion for hi-fi, many years of experience with the industry, you know some people, have connections. You open a YouTube channel and use it to talk about your hobby; you gain money, some internet fame, following, you receive some fancy new equipment every now and then to brag about and boost sales. Deep inside you know you're not just being overly optimistic, but who cares? You built something nice, why ruin it by being objective all of a sudden? It's not like you're selling drugs, you just help the industry and get something out of it. Besides, you can't be objective even if you wanted to as you lack tech knowledge and you can't hear that good at your age.
 
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hardisj

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Well, I tried to be civil in my earlier reply. And I really, truly still feel like even objectivists can go "too far" at times. There is a middle-ground where we just understand and accept that everyone is different.

However, I've had enough.

Trust me, this wasn't a video I just threw up on the internet. It's been an idea I've been sitting on for a long time. I've had trouble making myself do because I know the implications of it. But - frankly - I'm sick of seeing the likes of Steve Guttenberg try to discredit what I and other objective-based (not objective-only, mind you) reviewers provide. It's manipulation. He tries to steer people away from that because he can't provide it. I just hope this video opens up some eyes to how they are being manipulated and provides a basis of understanding for how silly the standard audiophile tropes of "everyone hears different" and "I listen with my ears" are and have gotten worse. We can enjoy the hobby in our own way. You don't have to understand or even like data. But there is no need to discredit the efforts of decades worth of research that show a strong correlation and - if nothing else - provides a reasonable reference to help you be more informed about purchases you have made or might make in the future.

Before you knee-jerk reply to this topic, I ask you to watch the video. I most likely have addressed the old audiophile arguments (ie, "I listen with my ears and not a mic", or "he's been doing this a long time so he knows what he's hearing" or "").


Feel free to reply here or in the video. Doesn't matter to me. And if you think I'm doing this to get money off ad-revenue here's a fact: I make about $0.02 per view. Two. Cents. ;)



 

amirm

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And if you think I'm doing this to get money off ad-revenue here's a fact: I make about $0.02 per view. Two. Cents. ;)
I watched it. Left me sad and disappointed. Didn't you early on say this after Steve took a shot at me?

I gotta be honest. I feel like threads that devolve in to an "us vs them" attitude are really doing no favors to the audio community. There is already a strong divide between subjectivists and objectivist-minded people and belittling the "others" (no matter which side you are on) doesn't serve to help the purpose of informing the misinformed. It just pushes them away. Subjectivists may come to this forum - based on Steve's recommendation - to see "just what the measurement stuff is about" - and find this thread where their favorite YouTuber is at first appreciated for recognizing "this side" of things but ultimately is crapped on and they can't help but feel as if *they* are, too, being crapped on.

Now you are all of a sudden at the other extreme with him "being in your lane?" What happened to "why can't we all get along?"

And what do you mean by "I believe I provide the most accurate data on loudspeakers than anyone?" What do I produce? Random numbers? You use the same bloody instrument I have yet you claim to have the most accurate data? That Klippel references your video so it must be proof of that?

As to being in it for education and not money, please.... You will quit your job in a minute if the youtube revenues started to rival that work as it has for Steve G. and many other youtubers. You are in absolutely the same game as he. You have commercialized the speaker measurements to an extreme with the same business model and plan as Steve. Sponsorships. Ads everywhere. I can't watch your video above without banner ads even though I have ad blocker on.

Do people get valuable data from your work? Absolutely, but please don't make it look like you are just donating them to the world. If you were, there would be no commercialization.

You are a youtuber aiming to make a business out of being one to pursue your hobby as your job. Be proud of it. Be upfront about it. You can't just be objective about audio measurements but in the next breath paint a picture of something you are not.

As to measurements, you also mislead somewhat by implying that they are dead accurate. They are not when it comes to speakers and headphones. Things like dispersion are not fully quantified. Audibility of distortion measurements is suspect. Even interpreting frequency response can be hard at times. Presumably this is why you listen in addition to measuring.

When people ask me I say speaker measurements are 80 to 90% instructive. If you push them beyond that, you are on your own and not backed by what we know about them.

I realize this is a harsh message but you really pushed me over the edge with the commentary and point of view in that video.
 

MakeMineVinyl

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Well, I tried to be civil in my earlier reply. And I really, truly still feel like even objectivists can go "too far" at times. There is a middle-ground where we just understand and accept that everyone is different.

However, I've had enough.

Trust me, this wasn't a video I just threw up on the internet. It's been an idea I've been sitting on for a long time. I've had trouble making myself do because I know the implications of it. But - frankly - I'm sick of seeing the likes of Steve Guttenberg try to discredit what I and other objective-based (not objective-only, mind you) reviewers provide. It's manipulation. He tries to steer people away from that because he can't provide it. I just hope this video opens up some eyes to how they are being manipulated and provides a basis of understanding for how silly the standard audiophile tropes of "everyone hears different" and "I listen with my ears" are and have gotten worse. We can enjoy the hobby in our own way. You don't have to understand or even like data. But there is no need to discredit the efforts of decades worth of research that show a strong correlation and - if nothing else - provides a reasonable reference to help you be more informed about purchases you have made or might make in the future.

Before you knee-jerk reply to this topic, I ask you to watch the video. I most likely have addressed the old audiophile arguments (ie, "I listen with my ears and not a mic", or "he's been doing this a long time so he knows what he's hearing" or "").


Feel free to reply here or in the video. Doesn't matter to me. And if you think I'm doing this to get money off ad-revenue here's a fact: I make about $0.02 per view. Two. Cents. ;)

I think as far as speaker reviews go, there is room for subjective impressions, which you do provide, in addition to the data. Speaking from just my own experiences, speakers which measure almost identically can nonetheless sound somewhat different, and how the speakers interact with any particular room can have something to do with this. When tuning my own system, I can make what would be pretty massive changes in EQ and hardly notice any audible difference relative to what the measurable change is.

Where I draw the line is subjective reviews on electronics when supposed 'differences' are not backed up by some objective measurement. Reviewers who pull off that kind of bullshit make this hobby less than rewarding.
 
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