ATC SCM19 Bookshelf Speaker Review

[q3cpma]

Yes and I will point out that in a £2000 speaker expect no more than £200 be spent in parts. So can we please stop bringing up state of the art drive units in a comparison to these?

We can still compare full systems: when https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120a-or-genelec-8030c.11109/ are less than half, I don't see any point in this specific model.

 

[DSJR]

I hope pro's can put me straight here, but from a smaller genelec 'desktop' model, could the bass alignment here also have something to do with the location of the 20 pro's on or close to a meter bridge on a mixing desk (same bass driver and almost similar box size) with early reflections from the desk playing a part? The larger models would be sat behind on tall stands. maybe total bull, but I offer it as an observation. Somewhere, I think I have Billy Woodman's 'White Paper' on the previous model but it's a long time since I last read it.

£200 in parts cost total? heck, not everyone has 10x or more markup to retail price (Rega for one in much of their production)...

 

[Ilkless]

Yes and I will point out that in a £2000 speaker expect no more than £200 be spent in parts. So can we please stop bringing up state of the art drive units in a comparison to these?

Except the ATC drivers at all levels are being held up by users an ATC themselves as examples of state-of-the-art design, for reasons such as the extraordinarily large motor. The pricing and market positioning of the ATC dome clearly shows that they really think so.

 

[tw99]

We can still compare full systems: when https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/neumann-kh120a-or-genelec-8030c.11109/ are less than half, I don't see any point in this specific model.

Despite owning a set of "dinosaur-tech ATC speakers", I actually like the idea of more modern offerings from a performance perspective. But having said that:

• I already own the speakers and have them tuned to an in-room curve that I enjoy listening to. So I have less motivation to spend money to change.
• Despite their great technical performance, most of the professional studio monitors are aesthetically pretty challenging for domestic environments. There's no way I'd get a pair of Neumanns or Genelecs past the decor consultant here, no matter how good they are.
• The more domestically acceptable full range DSP active speakers tend to come from small companies (e.g. D&D, Kii), and are pretty expensive, and with these companies I do have concerns about long term viability of their products. Just look at the saga of D&D firmware upgrades for example.

 

[LTig]

I hope pro's can put me straight here, but from a smaller genelec 'desktop' model, could the bass alignment here also have something to do with the location of the 20 pro's on or close to a meter bridge on a mixing desk (same bass driver and almost similar box size) with early reflections from the desk playing a part?

No. Genelecs and Neumanns have flat on axis response in the free field; and then offer specific EQ settings for positions close to the back wall or on the meter bridge (easy to implement in active speakers).

 

[Archsam]

It seems to me that many established manufacturers are hobbled by their own user demographic, it appears that real innovation has to spring from start-ups who don't have to carry the burden historic expectation.
Keith

I know it's easy for someone like me (i.e. non industry insider) to say, but if a manufacturer wants to branch out in a new design direction, isn't it as easy as introducing a new line of products?

Good example I can think of is MartinLogan, long an established player in electrostatic speakers, now pushing hard on their Motion series of cone speakers?

 

[q3cpma]

Despite owning a set of "dinosaur-tech ATC speakers", I actually like the idea of more modern offerings from a performance perspective. But having said that:

• I already own the speakers and have them tuned to an in-room curve that I enjoy listening to. So I have less motivation to spend money to change.
• Despite their great technical performance, most of the professional studio monitors are aesthetically pretty challenging for domestic environments. There's no way I'd get a pair of Neumanns or Genelecs past the decor consultant here, no matter how good they are.
• The more domestically acceptable full range DSP active speakers tend to come from small companies (e.g. D&D, Kii), and are pretty expensive, and with these companies I do have concerns about long term viability of their products. Just look at the saga of D&D firmware upgrades for example.

Indeed, this isn't easy to choose in this case. I think ME Geithain fits the bill, though.

 

[jachc]

Yes and I will point out that in a £2000 speaker expect no more than £200 be spent in parts. So can we please stop bringing up state of the art drive units in a comparison to these?

100%, I had a well out of warranty active ATC monitors (the rigid aluminium cabinet variety), took them down to the local (Australian) distributor for repair (no top end=dead ferrofluid) and had the HF drivers replaced inc. labour for AUD$250. Apologies for disruptive bracketed message!

I don't doubt the results of Amir's test, but I can't help but wonder whether it should be taken as the be all of it. I have scm19's currently but I run them next to stereo 15" EAW subs as the response fall off below 80hz is too steep. Tough shit for my wife (two big black boxes!) , but I wouldn't swap the ATCs for anything in the world.

I definitely don't have a low-mid hump, I definitely don't experience any excursion limits, in fact, the lack of distortion at high SPL is second to none. The eq correction made by Amir says to me that the amp driving this test was underpowered.

A boost below 500hz to ensure that those frequencies are audible regardless of distortion and a cut just over that point where the amplifier's power has stopped being able to effectively control the driver leading to resonance as the driver vibrates under the spring of the rubber is just a lack of control on behalf of the amp.

Secondly, more often than not, driver compression makes listening more exciting and more quickly fatiguing...that's distortion. I prefer a speaker that bottoms out when it reaches its excursion end rather than using its physical materials to compress the amplitude before it reaches that point, compressing (or distorting) the audible signal.

The Scm19s, when driven by an amp that can control the weight of the woofer, are so low in distortion that they may appear to be dull compared to other drivers (at relative SPL).Amplification and damping play a massive role when your LF driver assembly weighs 9kg. The amplifier is moving possibly a pound of mass with each inflection and as such, I personally think 500w (let alone the developer specification of 250w) is no where near enough to control that weight and therefore distortion in the Atc Assembly.

@amirm, what amplifier was used in the test? I drive mine with 1200wpc, I have driven them with less and experienced low performance and distortion.

I trust my scm19s. I don't doubt the results of the test here but I sincerely doubt that they are a valid representation of ATCs pedigree, let alone these exact speakers. Amir's comments are not explosive in any way, but the resulting conversion is typical pseudo-science bullshit, the kind that ruins companies or sways elections.

The bandwagon is there, jump on, have a dig at me too. Unfortunately, all the noise just dilutes the effectiveness of Amir's tests, which i trust myself. If anything, ATC is only culpable of recommending too low a powered amplifier for their speakers.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I hope pro's can put me straight here, but from a smaller genelec 'desktop' model, could the bass alignment here also have something to do with the location of the 20 pro's on or close to a meter bridge on a mixing desk (same bass driver and almost similar box size) with early reflections from the desk playing a part? The larger models would be sat behind on tall stands. maybe total bull, but I offer it as an observation. Somewhere, I think I have Billy Woodman's 'White Paper' on the previous model but it's a long time since I last read it.

£200 in parts cost total? heck, not everyone has 10x or more markup to retail price (Rega for one in much of their production)...

The BOM cost of many production items is 10% of retail.
The rest is dealer margin, R&D, tooling (in the cases I am familiar with the tooling is mega expensive), overhead and profit.
I know of one driver which is pistonic over the whole mid frequency range with distortion less than 0.1% which is built on sophisticated tooling for an OEM in vast quantities for $1 per unit. The R&D costs and tooling cost has to be recouped but the BOM cost is almost nothing.
Back when I worked for Lotus and a colleague was trying to get the big Detroit manufacturers to buy their system, which used 4 $700 servo-valves, it was explained to him that they bought springs for 25 cents each and dampers (Shocks in USspeak) for $1 each so the bit he was competing with currently cost the $5 per car...

 

[Lao Lu]

Except that the ATC woofer used here isn't letting itself down in any major way compared to most of those. The purifi is an exception, but then it's an exception Vs everything else currently on the market.

These are speakers built to a price point and realistically the kind of woofer they'd be using is something from SBs standard range or SEAS prestige range. Certainly not the ultra high-end and don't get me started on all the problems most of accutons ferrite drivers have.

The ATC woofer shows decently low levels of harmonic distortion without the typical inductive rise. It's presenting with about -50-55dB third order throughout the midrange at 96dB which is very good performance. The second order peak is par for the course in pretty much all soft cone drivers at some frequency.

What these speakers don't do is have any horrible distortion peaking at the bottom of the tweeters passband or top of the woofers. In fact the harmonic distortion profile of the ATCs is very good and significantly better than lots of other speakers I've seen tested. I'd prefer lower levels of 5th harmonic but what's there is smooth and without peaking.

Can you show me measurements of the ATC mid dome producing these high levels of distortion you're complaining it has in a speaker that isn't active? Because every independent measurement of the naked dome I've seen shows very low levels of distortion.

I had forgotten how old long ago the 19 v2 had been released, SIX years...how old old was the one Amirm measured? Are loudspeakers like a good Bordeaux, smoothing out with a bit of time in the cellar?

Except that the ATC woofer used here isn't letting itself down in any major way compared to most of those. The purifi is an exception, but then it's an exception Vs everything else currently on the market.

These are speakers built to a price point and realistically the kind of woofer they'd be using is something from SBs standard range or SEAS prestige range. Certainly not the ultra high-end and don't get me started on all the problems most of accutons ferrite drivers have.

The ATC woofer shows decently low levels of harmonic distortion without the typical inductive rise. It's presenting with about -50-55dB third order throughout the midrange at 96dB which is very good performance. The second order peak is par for the course in pretty much all soft cone drivers at some frequency.

What these speakers don't do is have any horrible distortion peaking at the bottom of the tweeters passband or top of the woofers. In fact the harmonic distortion profile of the ATCs is very good and significantly better than lots of other speakers I've seen tested. I'd prefer lower levels of 5th harmonic but what's there is smooth and without peaking.

Can you show me measurements of the ATC mid dome producing these high levels of distortion you're complaining it has in a speaker that isn't active? Because every independent measurement of the naked dome I've seen shows very low levels of distortion.

I had forgotten how long ago the 19v2 was released, SIX years...how old was that V1 that Amirm measured? Are loudspeakers like a good Bordeaux, smoother with a bit of time in the cellar?

Except that the ATC woofer used here isn't letting itself down in any major way compared to most of those. The purifi is an exception, but then it's an exception Vs everything else currently on the market.

These are speakers built to a price point and realistically the kind of woofer they'd be using is something from SBs standard range or SEAS prestige range. Certainly not the ultra high-end and don't get me started on all the problems most of accutons ferrite drivers have.

The ATC woofer shows decently low levels of harmonic distortion without the typical inductive rise. It's presenting with about -50-55dB third order throughout the midrange at 96dB which is very good performance. The second order peak is par for the course in pretty much all soft cone drivers at some frequency.

What these speakers don't do is have any horrible distortion peaking at the bottom of the tweeters passband or top of the woofers. In fact the harmonic distortion profile of the ATCs is very good and significantly better than lots of other speakers I've seen tested. I'd prefer lower levels of 5th harmonic but what's there is smooth and without peaking.

Can you show me measurements of the ATC mid dome producing these high levels of distortion you're complaining it has in a speaker that isn't active? Because every independent measurement of the naked dome I've seen shows very low levels of distortion.

I had forgotten how long ago the 19v2 was released, SIX years...how old was that V1 that Amirm measured? Are loudspeakers like a good Bordeaux, smoother after a bit of time in the cellar? ATC's midrange has been measured by Troels Gravesen, Zaph, and the late Jeff Bagby, all three DIYers who could have cried sour grapes, but none of them had bad things to say other than concerns about the softdome's price and weight.....

Except the ATC drivers at all levels are being held up by users an ATC themselves as examples of state-of-the-art design, for reasons such as the extraordinarily large motor. The pricing and market positioning of the ATC dome clearly shows that they really think so.

You have a good point there....

 

[TimVG]

This is a decently designed loudspeaker, it just needs boundary reinforcement to correct for baffle step losses.

The confusing part is that ATC say they should be placed away from walls which is clearly not the case.

I've too designed speakers without baffle step compensation and they'd show a similar trend to these. No doubt everyone would bash on those too except they were designed to be placed essentially 'in wall' on a shelf and the instructions would say do not put them in free space or they will sound bad.

So it is a decently designed speaker, except it really isn't given the non-neutral response and directivity issue.. And apart from that you should use it near boundaries, except the manual says you shouldn't.. Conclusion - it's really not a very well designed loudspeaker.

 

[Lao Lu]

100%, I had a well out of warranty active ATC monitors (the rigid aluminium cabinet variety), took them down to the local (Australian) distributor for repair (no top end=dead ferrofluid) and had the HF drivers replaced inc. labour for AUD$250. Apologies for disruptive bracketed message!

I don't doubt the results of Amir's test, but I can't help but wonder whether it should be taken as the be all of it. I have scm19's currently but I run them next to stereo 15" EAW subs as the response fall off below 80hz is too steep. Tough shit for my wife (two big black boxes!) , but I wouldn't swap the ATCs for anything in the world.

I definitely don't have a low-mid hump, I definitely don't experience any excursion limits, in fact, the lack of distortion at high SPL is second to none. The eq correction made by Amir says to me that the amp driving this test was underpowered.

A boost below 500hz to ensure that those frequencies are audible regardless of distortion and a cut just over that point where the amplifier's power has stopped being able to effectively control the driver leading to resonance as the driver vibrates under the spring of the rubber is just a lack of control on behalf of the amp.

Secondly, more often than not, driver compression makes listening more exciting and more quickly fatiguing...that's distortion. I prefer a speaker that bottoms out when it reaches its excursion end rather than using its physical materials to compress the amplitude before it reaches that point, compressing (or distorting) the audible signal.

The Scm19s, when driven by an amp that can control the weight of the woofer, are so low in distortion that they may appear to be dull compared to other drivers (at relative SPL).Amplification and damping play a massive role when your LF driver assembly weighs 9kg. The amplifier is moving possibly a pound of mass with each inflection and as such, I personally think 500w (let alone the developer specification of 250w) is no where near enough to control that weight and therefore distortion in the Atc Assembly.

@amirm, what amplifier was used in the test? I drive mine with 1200wpc, I have driven them with less and experienced low performance and distortion.

I trust my scm19s. I don't doubt the results of the test here but I sincerely doubt that they are a valid representation of ATCs pedigree, let alone these exact speakers. Amir's comments are not explosive in any way, but the resulting conversion is typical pseudo-science bullshit, the kind that ruins companies or sways elections.

The bandwagon is there, jump on, have a dig at me too. Unfortunately, all the noise just dilutes the effectiveness of Amir's tests, which i trust myself. If anything, ATC is only culpable of recommending too low a powered amplifier for their speakers.

I once heard an old pair driven by unsuitable amp and they were lifeless logs....

 

[ROOSKIE]

Despite owning a set of "dinosaur-tech ATC speakers", I actually like the idea of more modern offerings from a performance perspective. But having said that:

• I already own the speakers and have them tuned to an in-room curve that I enjoy listening to. So I have less motivation to spend money to change.
• Despite their great technical performance, most of the professional studio monitors are aesthetically pretty challenging for domestic environments. There's no way I'd get a pair of Neumanns or Genelecs past the decor consultant here, no matter how good they are.
• The more domestically acceptable full range DSP active speakers tend to come from small companies (e.g. D&D, Kii), and are pretty expensive, and with these companies I do have concerns about long term viability of their products. Just look at the saga of D&D firmware upgrades for example.

Yes but you ( or someone currently shopping) have plenty of choices. Don't forget these don't measure in way better than several reasonably fashionable speakers that cost under a grand per pair. Such as Revel m16, Focal Aria 906 ( always has some under 1k on constant "sale", ELAC DBR-62. You could even buy the plain black infinity r162 when on sale for $200 a pair, easily refinish in a nice hardwood veneer and have any look you want for well under $500 a pair.
The KEF R3 measure fantastically and are $2k a pair, they look excellent to many.

 

[Chrise36]

The UK price for the current model is £2150 so I'd expect that to be more like €2500.

The current model was not what was tested.

 

[richard12511]

100%, I had a well out of warranty active ATC monitors (the rigid aluminium cabinet variety), took them down to the local (Australian) distributor for repair (no top end=dead ferrofluid) and had the HF drivers replaced inc. labour for AUD$250. Apologies for disruptive bracketed message!

I don't doubt the results of Amir's test, but I can't help but wonder whether it should be taken as the be all of it. I have scm19's currently but I run them next to stereo 15" EAW subs as the response fall off below 80hz is too steep. Tough shit for my wife (two big black boxes!) , but I wouldn't swap the ATCs for anything in the world.

I definitely don't have a low-mid hump, I definitely don't experience any excursion limits, in fact, the lack of distortion at high SPL is second to none. The eq correction made by Amir says to me that the amp driving this test was underpowered.

A boost below 500hz to ensure that those frequencies are audible regardless of distortion and a cut just over that point where the amplifier's power has stopped being able to effectively control the driver leading to resonance as the driver vibrates under the spring of the rubber is just a lack of control on behalf of the amp.

Secondly, more often than not, driver compression makes listening more exciting and more quickly fatiguing...that's distortion. I prefer a speaker that bottoms out when it reaches its excursion end rather than using its physical materials to compress the amplitude before it reaches that point, compressing (or distorting) the audible signal.

The Scm19s, when driven by an amp that can control the weight of the woofer, are so low in distortion that they may appear to be dull compared to other drivers (at relative SPL).Amplification and damping play a massive role when your LF driver assembly weighs 9kg. The amplifier is moving possibly a pound of mass with each inflection and as such, I personally think 500w (let alone the developer specification of 250w) is no where near enough to control that weight and therefore distortion in the Atc Assembly.

@amirm, what amplifier was used in the test? I drive mine with 1200wpc, I have driven them with less and experienced low performance and distortion.

I trust my scm19s. I don't doubt the results of the test here but I sincerely doubt that they are a valid representation of ATCs pedigree, let alone these exact speakers. Amir's comments are not explosive in any way, but the resulting conversion is typical pseudo-science bullshit, the kind that ruins companies or sways elections.

The bandwagon is there, jump on, have a dig at me too. Unfortunately, all the noise just dilutes the effectiveness of Amir's tests, which i trust myself. If anything, ATC is only culpable of recommending too low a powered amplifier for their speakers.

Can these guys even take 1200wpc? I feel like that much power would destroy them. That seems like an unnecessary amount of power. Recommended power says 75-300wpc.

Amir has 1000 wpc I believe? Some ridiculous $50,000 amps if I'm not mistaken.

 

[ROOSKIE]

I definitely don't have a low-mid hump, I definitely don't experience any excursion limits, in fact, the lack of distortion at high SPL is second to none. The eq correction made by Amir says to me that the amp driving this test was underpowered.

A boost below 500hz to ensure that those frequencies are audible regardless of distortion and a cut just over that point where the amplifier's power has stopped being able to effectively control the driver leading to resonance as the driver vibrates under the spring of the rubber is just a lack of control on behalf of the amp.

Secondly, more often than not, driver compression makes listening more exciting and more quickly fatiguing...that's distortion. I prefer a speaker that bottoms out when it reaches its excursion end rather than using its physical materials to compress the amplitude before it reaches that point, compressing (or distorting) the audible signal.

The Scm19s, when driven by an amp that can control the weight of the woofer, are so low in distortion that they may appear to be dull compared to other drivers (at relative SPL).Amplification and damping play a massive role when your LF driver assembly weighs 9kg. The amplifier is moving possibly a pound of mass with each inflection and as such, I personally think 500w (let alone the developer specification of 250w) is no where near enough to control that weight and therefore distortion in the Atc Assembly.


I trust my scm19s. I don't doubt the results of the test here but I sincerely doubt that they are a valid representation of ATCs pedigree, let alone these exact speakers. Amir's comments are not explosive in any way, but the resulting conversion is typical pseudo-science bullshit, the kind that ruins companies or sways elections.

Hear yah, you love them and are going to bat for em'.
So the amp used here is 1000 watts. Power is not a problem. The driver bottoming out is not due to a lack of power. More power and it will only bottom out more.
So just saying politely, those who live in glass houses better not throw stones. If you feel the conversation is pseudo-science, I have to say you added to the pile. You comments about amplifier power and driver distortion are not scientific and not based in reality.
Additionally if you are sure you don't have the frequency response errors, lack of distortion ect - to make you comment more than subjective based psuedo-science a few simple measurements would do that. Or at least tell us you indeed measured them at some point in the past and that they do not have these problems.

 

[daftcombo]

Active how recent? Their active models go back to the early 80's I believe (shaky memories here though) and I understand the original electronics director (Tim Isaacs) all but 'invented or developed' pro active PA systems for Martin Audio if memory serves. My 100A's were effectively a mk2 model (new amp packs) in early 1993 and the previous version had been around a long time before that.

With all due respect to all of you, the need for a redused bass model such as this is very important for smaller rooms where one just can't pull the speakers into a free-field situation. Having said that, the early SL main drivers which were introduced in 1997 or so did seem to pull upper mids up a bit over the previous generation (the area covered by the centre dome on this model, but we're talking twenty odd years ago now and although at my age, this is 'yesterday,' in terms of product development, staff changes/retirements and so on, it's an age in real terms production wise. I mean. look how JBL have changed in design in twenty five years or so - I know enough about that manufacturer and their models to NEVER judge on just one of their speakers as they seem to rtange from bloody marvellous to absolute horrors!!!

I get what you say about the destination of those speakers: being close to walls, surrounded by books or even mounted in-wall. But do we have measurements showing the consequences of such positionning? Is the baffle step completely eliminated?

 

[Eetu]

Regarding ATC's line-up. Hifimaailma had an interesting blind test comparing 14 speakers in the +-1000€ range. ATC SCM7 ended up in last place.

The winner was Heco Celan Revolution 3 followed by Revel M16 and Focal Aria 906.

 

[Chrise36]

Regarding ATC's line-up. Hifimaailma had an interesting blind test comparing 14 speakers in the +-1000€ range. ATC SCM7 ended up in last place.

The winner was Heco Celan Revolution 3 followed by Revel M16 and Focal Aria 906.

What do they say about the Monitor Audio?

 

[fredoamigo]

Regarding ATC's line-up. Hifimaailma had an interesting blind test comparing 14 speakers in the +-1000€ range. ATC SCM7 ended up in last place.

The winner was Heco Celan Revolution 3 followed by Revel M16 and Focal Aria 906.

it's too bad it doesn't include the NHT C3 but very interesting. NHT C3 Bookshelf Speaker Review - HomeTheaterHifi.com