Amplifier for Focal Kanta Nº2

[Mart68]

You have just distorted my post by quoting a single sentence. So again, i provide full context.

"considering that the teac ap-701 is my first class D amplifier, so it was (and still is) a possibility that i do not like the frequency response of accurate reprodution and prefer some sort of distortion"

I believe you already made your assumption that i am a snake oil person, probably because i am new to this forum, as you constantly like to point out and with that, you have also made your assumption regarding this situation, being that what i am hearing lies on me, period.

After i first got the TEAC and was left extremely disappointed, my first possibility was me prefering some sort of distortion, and that to be the likely cause, so to actually try and confirm it all the testing i have made either with the TEAC AP-701 and the uniti nova with the Kanta's, and after that with the Arias 926, were blind testing, with my girlfriend changing the setup, so to cut as much as i could the possibility of a placebo effect.
So again, even with all this, there is still a possibility that i do prefer some sort of distortion, but at this stage, it definitely is not the higher probability.

This has nothing to do with you preferring some sort of distortion, I think that is where you are going wrong.

The TEAC sounds fine to you into a speaker which presents an easier load, and doesn't sound fine into the speaker which is a difficult load.

The relationship between amplifier and passive loudspeaker is very complex and it can't be distilled down to 'Hypex is fine into a 2 ohm load'

It could be cognitive bias at play, both in your case and in my case. I would not rule it out. But the fact remains you are not happy with the pairing, so IMO you are doing the right thing in trying a different amplifier, especially since as you say, it is not going to cost you anything to try.

 

[Diecastt]

This has nothing to do with you preferring some sort of distortion, I think that is where you are going wrong.

The TEAC sounds fine to you into a speaker which presents an easier load, and doesn't sound fine into the speaker which is a difficult load.

The relationship between amplifier and passive loudspeaker is very complex and it can't be distilled down to 'Hypex is fine into a 2 ohm load'

It could be cognitive bias at play, both in your case and in my case. I would not rule it out. But the fact remains you are not happy with the pairing, so IMO you are doing the right thing in trying a different amplifier, especially since as you say, it is not going to cost you anything to try.

Yeah, the thesis of me prefering some sort of distortion part, was specifically applied when i first received the teac ap-701 and being my first experience with class D.

As things stand, and with the different testing, i clearly believe the easier-difficult load to be what's at stake. But will have to wait and see if that's the case, after i try it with the Burson's and if that also doesn't work, with a Ncore HC500.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Welcome (with the gears described here, I assume that I'm talking to some French fellow)

After i first got the TEAC and was left extremely disappointed, my first possibility was me prefering some sort of distortion, and that to be the likely cause, so to actually try and confirm it all the testing i have made either with the TEAC AP-701 and the uniti nova with the Kanta's, and after that with the Arias 926, were blind testing, with my girlfriend changing the setup, so to cut as much as i could the possibility of a placebo effect.

I don't understand what "blind test" that is... Is it with two amps driving the Aria, then the same two amps driving the Kanta...? Looks hardly like any kind controlled listening, IMHO.

Anyway,

The TEAC AP-701 is just built around a pair of nCore NC250MP, so it is extremely overpriced for what it is. Yes, it should be "fine" for Kanta N°2, but it is not a powerhouse either...

You could try NC500MP Monoblocks (or the Stereo version, it doesn't matter) from Audiophonics. These are twice as powerful as NC250MP, but not SOTA amps when it comes to deal with low loads. Then, you could give a try to boXem Arthur 4222/E1 Monoblocks, that are fine with 2Ω:

boXem Arthur 4222/E1 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the boXem Audio Arthur 4222/E1 mono power amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs €1,490.00. The design is quintessential European with gray body and colorful front panel which I like. The only power button is on the back: Fortunately...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With Class AB, look no further than Rotel/Michi, which are among the more powerful pieces of gear for their prices under low impedances (>1kW under 2Ω). Take a look at RB-1582 MkII, or some.negociated Michi S5. But honestly, that's a waste of money over the proposal above.

 

[Mart68]

Yeah, the thesis of me prefering some sort of distortion part, was specifically applied when i first received the teac ap-701 and being my first experience with class D.

As things stand, and with the different testing, i clearly believe the easier-difficult load to be what's at stake. But will have to wait and see if that's the case, after i try it with the Burson's and if that also doesn't work, with a Ncore HC500.

Here's a photo from a couple of years back where I was comparing a class D to class A. (The little box on top is the class D).

 

[Diecastt]

Welcome (with the gears described here, I assume that I'm talking to some French fellow)


I don't understand what "blind test" that is... Is it with two amps driving the Aria, then the same two amps driving the Kanta...? Looks hardly like any kind controlled listening, IMHO.

Anyway,

The TEAC AP-701 is just built around a pair of nCore NC250MP, so it is extremely overpriced for what it is. Yes, it should be "fine" for Kanta N°2, but it is not a powerhouse either...

You could try NC500MP Monoblocks (or the Stereo version, it doesn't matter) from Audiophonics. These are twice as powerful as NC250MP, but not SOTA amps when it comes to deal with low loads. Then, you could give a try to boXem Arthur 4222/E1 Monoblocks, that are fine with 2Ω:

boXem Arthur 4222/E1 Amplifier Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the boXem Audio Arthur 4222/E1 mono power amplifier. It was sent to me by the company and costs €1,490.00. The design is quintessential European with gray body and colorful front panel which I like. The only power button is on the back: Fortunately...

www.audiosciencereview.com

With Class AB, look no further than Rotel/Michi, which are among the more powerful pieces of gear for their prices under low impedances (>1kW under 2Ω). Take a look at RB-1582 MkII, or some.negociated Michi S5. But honestly, that's a waste of money over the proposal above.

Basically the first blind testing was using the TEAC and the Uniti Nova with the Kanta's on the same space with the same db's. It's actually important to note, that for them to be in the same db's the TEAC has to be cranked to 78-79, while the uniti nova only has to be in 60-61 volume. On paper, the TEAC has 170W on 8 ohm's while the Nova only has 80W.

Then the latest testing was made using the Aria's and the Kanta's on the same exact space with the same db's using only the TEAC. Like i said, it was made in a way that my girlfriend would switch the setup so i wouldn't know which is which. However it is obviously not the best way, for example, the Kanta's are easily identifiable due to the beryllium tweeter providing a lot more micro details than the aria's.
However it was the best way i could test and i tried to only pay attention to the low frequency response.

I ended up hearing the Arias 926 to produce a more bassier/fuller sound than the Kanta's, which shouldn't have applied, considering that the Kanta's go lower than the Aria's, so it should have been the opposite.

Thank you very much for your suggestions, i will put the Boxem Arthur on top of the list along with the HC500 implementation, if this isn't solved with the Burson's.

 

[VintageFlanker]

It's actually important to note, that for them to be in the same db's the TEAC has to be cranked to 78-79, while the uniti nova only has to be in 60-61 volume. On paper, the TEAC has 170W on 8 ohm's while the Nova only has 80W.

Sure. You're just discovering the difference between Gain and Power. 60% volume doesn't equal 60% power. Like, at all.

However it was the best way

Yep, It really wasn't.

Thank you very much for your suggestions, i will put the Boxem Arthur on top of the list along with the HC500 implementation, if this isn't solved with the Burson's.

I wouldn't expect much from Burson's, but anyway, that is your system after all...

PS: nCore HC500 doesn't exist. I was talking about NC500MP. Either way, now that new nCx500 and Nilai monoblocks are available, these are still options to consider.

 

[Diecastt]

PS: nCore HC500 doesn't exist. I was talking about NC500MP. Either way, now that new nCx500 and Nilai monoblocks are available, these are still options to consider.

That was a typo, of course i meant the NC500. Did not know there were already implementations of the NCx500 for sale in europe, so that also might be an excelent option. Thanks.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Did not know there were already implementations of the NCx500 for sale in europe

Yes, until very recently (PS: prices are Ex VAT and shipping):

Hypex NCx500 Class D Amplifier Review

Hi Redwine NCx500 My personnel opinion is I like the a lot. You can listen louder without it being uncomfortable and the speakers protesting. More bass Better soundstage More engaging and musical, I had to stay all afternoon in my listening room I have never done that with other products Hope...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[MaxBuck]

I understand your sarcasm, but if you had actually read the the post, the answer is actually in there just a little further... "but with the Kanta's the sound is very forward and thin, clearly lacking in the mids/bass and not enjoyable at all for the type of music i listen to (mostly rock)"

See, I have no idea what "thin" and "forward" mean when discussing reproduced sound. I understand what the terms mean when one is discussing women, and they accompany one another in distressingly few cases. But when talking sound, they're meaningless.

 

[Diecastt]

See, I have no idea what "thin" and "forward" mean when discussing reproduced sound. I understand what the terms mean when one is discussing women, and they accompany one another in distressingly few cases. But when talking sound, they're meaningless.

I can understand that, i, for one, do not really like women clearly lacking in the mids/bass.

 

[polmuaddib]

You have just distorted my post by quoting a single sentence. So again, i provide full context.

"considering that the teac ap-701 is my first class D amplifier, so it was (and still is) a possibility that i do not like the frequency response of accurate reprodution and prefer some sort of distortion"

I believe you already made your assumption that i am a snake oil person, probably because i am new to this forum, as you constantly like to point out and with that, you have also made your assumption regarding this situation, being that what i am hearing lies on me, period.

After i first got the TEAC and was left extremely disappointed, my first possibility was me prefering some sort of distortion, and that to be the likely cause, so to actually try and confirm it all the testing i have made either with the TEAC AP-701 and the uniti nova with the Kanta's, and after that with the Arias 926, were blind testing, with my girlfriend changing the setup, so to cut as much as i could the possibility of a placebo effect.
So again, even with all this, there is still a possibility that i do prefer some sort of distortion, but at this stage, it definitely is not the higher probability.

You have taken my advice the wrong way.
My pointing out to your perception of the sound you're getting and your assumption that your amp is to blame has one purpose only and that is to change your way of thinking.
In your original post you are sure that your amp is to blame and there have been some members suggesting that you should make measurements before you go buying a new amp, which you ignored.

Here is what you need to do before buying a new amp:
1. Read some posts here about measuring your room. There is a great post for beginners by the author of this website.
2. Buy a measurement mic.
3. Experiment with speaker positioning and your listener's position. You have no idea how that can change the bass response alone.
4. Try borrowing another amp and measuring and then determining if there is any difference.
5. Maybe buy more powerful amp...

Of course, these things take time. But cost less then swapping amps.

 

[GXAlan]

So again, even with all this, there is still a possibility that i do prefer some sort of distortion, but at this stage, it definitely is not the higher probability.

Preferring distortion is not something to be ashamed of.

I do not love the sound of my Kenwood L-08M after restoration for most music. It looks cool, I "always wanted one", and I had it fully restored, so all of the bias should be toward "I like the sound."

My measurements are always a few dB worse than Amir's, so that 5W SINAD is probably on par with the NC500 (made more impressive since the Kenwood L-08M is vintage).

Kenwood L-08M Monoblock Amplifier (Vintage Review)

Kenwood L-08M Monoblock Amplifier Review (Vintage Gear; QuirkAudio restored) Where were you in 1980? In Tokyo, Japan, a small team of engineers released the most sophisticated amplifier of its time... A bit of history In the 1970's, an elite team of veteran Trio-Kenwood engineers left the...

www.audiosciencereview.com

--------------
I will quote what I wrote there:

Subjective Impressions
Truth. Transparency. Makes bad recordings worse. Makes great recordings incredible. If I only had one amplifier, it'd be the Marantz PM-10 just for its versatility. If I am allowed to keep two amplifiers, my #2 would easily be the Kenwood L-08C/L-08M combo.

When I first brought the L-08M's home and fired it up, I was actually very disappointed. Vocals sounded thin and I just didn't enjoy it as much as my tube amp or warmer sounding Marantz PM-90 which measures worse. I was listening to the soundtrack from La La Land where you have actors/actresses singing (not necessarily professional singers). As I switched back and forth between the Kenwood L-08M and the Marantz PM-90 fed directly by a Topping D50s, I quickly was able to identify the difference. On the Kenwood, voices from the La La Land Soundtrack sounded like they were coming from something a little over an inch wide: a human mouth. With tube amps or the PM-90, the voices were larger than life as if I was watching something at a movie theater rather than having someone actually in the room.

Switching back and forth, it was pretty clear to me that the Kenwood was a more accurate amplifier that could bring Emma Stone into the room. But no matter how much my brain told me that I should want and prefer the absolute truth and transparency in my gear, I still personal have the preference for a larger-than-life sound and euphonic colorations that I get with the tubes or my Marantz gear -- at least for that specific soundtrack.

But classical music? Wow.
LP vinyl? Wow x 2.

Classical music is brilliant on this and it makes grand pianos sound authentic. I cannot describe exactly what is special and a null test might be a great way to assess this. I'm very familiar with piano music, and back when I was actively taking lessons, I could walk through a hotel or mall, hear an actual piano in the background and tell you with complete accuracy whether it was a Steinway, Kawai, Yamaha, or other. What really stands out with the L-08M is what I call micro-imaging for lack of a better term. Even with LP vinyls, you not only get a clear phantom center, a clear left and right image, but what separates this L-08M from basically every other amplifier I've listed to, other than the PM-10, is an uncanny ability for this amplifier to place instruments in sharp focus in a way unlike any other amplifier in the space IN BETWEEN phantom center and left or right. I have had other monoblocks such as those from Adcom and PS Audio 200c, but none of them achieved what the Kenwood could. I actually think the Kenwood L-08M beats the Marantz PM-10 for delivering the most narrow phantom center image (specifically for the La La Land Soundtrack) but the PM-10 gives me the chameleon of clean vocals with the tiniest amount of tube warmth with all of the crystalline clarity of classical music where direct comparisons can be made to reality.

The L-08M does great in my home theater setup. Harmonious Live on Disney+ sounds truly breathtaking with the L-08M. Even though the show is streamed in lossy Dolby Digital Plus, it indicates to me that the L-08M doesn't need some sort of fancy audiophile master recording. The L-08M is just a window of truth. It cannot make very good singers (who are better at acting) like Emma Stone and Ryan Gossling sound like spectacular singers the way that my Marantz gear can. The L-08M instead makes me feel like Simon Cowell -- suddenly I can easily hear the difference between world-class singers and very good singers.
--------------

I am really enjoying my Sony TA-ZH1ES, which sadly measures really poorly when it comes to distortion.

 

[Diecastt]

You have taken my advice the wrong way.
My pointing out to your perception of the sound you're getting and your assumption that your amp is to blame has one purpose only and that is to change your way of thinking.

I think i have already explained myself more than enough that it was definitely not the case. And me wanting to change to a new amp is because i do not like the sound of the teac with the Kanta's in my room. I already have the Kanta's for quite a few time, and know the room they are in very well. As it is not a dedicated room, i already all that i could in terms of sound treatment, so my hands are tied in that regard.

Even if i do measurements, the fact that i do not like it with my main speakers will not change. Over the years i tested the Kanta's with several amplifiers, some A/AB amps that measure really well, and some that have mediocre/poor measurements, and also, tube amplifiers. And there were times when i prefered a mediocre measured amplifier to a good one.
I bought the TEAC really wanting to like it, specially since like i said, i tested them previously with Sonus Faber speakers, and really liking it was what lead me to pull the trigger and buy the amplifier.

What actually change after i made this thread was my perception of what's causing it. If at first my main guess was that i prefer distortion/i find class D to be too clinical sounding for my taste and as such i have the perception of low bass/soft mids, now i actually think now the higher probability is because the amp cannot deal with the load of the Kanta's. As with my experience with both the Kanta's and the Aria's, the Kanta's were always more bass oriented, and only in this TEAC i find not to be the case, which is definitely weird.

However, there remains to be several possibilities, so even after all this, i might find that the fault lies in me liking some sort of distortion, and as several people pointed out, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as i get a kick out of it, and really enjoy the music. I really hope i like the burson's and can have that enjoyment with them, but if that's not the case, considering this purchase will not have any risks, i will then buy a Purifi or NCx500 based amp to test and A/B it with the TEAC.

 

[Overseas]

As V. Flanker said, conservative option is Rotel/Michi. For good price, Rotel upper models are monoblock design and separates are available. No doubt they will rock your speakers off.

 

[delta76]

I think i have already explained myself more than enough that it was definitely not the case. And me wanting to change to a new amp is because i do not like the sound of the teac with the Kanta's in my room. I already have the Kanta's for quite a few time, and know the room they are in very well. As it is not a dedicated room, i already all that i could in terms of sound treatment, so my hands are tied in that regard.

Even if i do measurements, the fact that i do not like it with my main speakers will not change. Over the years i tested the Kanta's with several amplifiers, some A/AB amps that measure really well, and some that have mediocre/poor measurements, and also, tube amplifiers. And there were times when i prefered a mediocre measured amplifier to a good one.
I bought the TEAC really wanting to like it, specially since like i said, i tested them previously with Sonus Faber speakers, and really liking it was what lead me to pull the trigger and buy the amplifier.

What actually change after i made this thread was my perception of what's causing it. If at first my main guess was that i prefer distortion/i find class D to be too clinical sounding for my taste and as such i have the perception of low bass/soft mids, now i actually think now the higher probability is because the amp cannot deal with the load of the Kanta's. As with my experience with both the Kanta's and the Aria's, the Kanta's were always more bass oriented, and only in this TEAC i find not to be the case, which is definitely weird.

However, there remains to be several possibilities, so even after all this, i might find that the fault lies in me liking some sort of distortion, and as several people pointed out, there's nothing wrong with that, as long as i get a kick out of it, and really enjoy the music. I really hope i like the burson's and can have that enjoyment with them, but if that's not the case, considering this purchase will not have any risks, i will then buy a Purifi or NCx500 based amp to test and A/B it with the TEAC.

as I mentioned, there are some possible explanation to your dis like of TEAC + Kanta combination:
- Your TEAC is broken, which is unlikely but not impossible.
- You simply don't like the sound of Kanta when it is powered by a "transparent" amp. There is nothing wrong, just you like certain sound signatures that just are not strong suit of your Kanta.

Looking for an amp that can "pair" well with your Kanta is working it backward, you will have to test a bunch of amps to see which has the distortions you like, and works with characteristics of your room. Instead, you should get an amp that does not get in the way (i.e. transparent, like proven Purifi or Hypex implementation), and then treat your room and EQ your speakers to your liking.

 

[Donald DAC]

Hi!

Just want to post my findings in this topic as I'm in about the same situation.
I upgraded from Focal Aria 936 speakers a while ago to a pair of Kanta 2:s. I can confirm the "thin and forward" feeling. Or more of a loudness sound for me.

The Arias were powered by a Yamaha AVR as I have a 5.1 setup with the Aria center and surrounds. The Arias were easy to like but I wanted to level up
So I bought a pair of used Kanta 2 speakers. With the Yamaha AVR via Spotify Connect mainly, the Kantas excelled in the bass region, going deeper, more punch, control and weight. Lower mid range is quite thin on the Kantas. The highs were more clear and revealing (beryllium tweeters) on the Kantas. A bit loudness like.

I've now got a Purify amp that get's it's signal from the Yamaha AVR pre out. The sound now is more clear on the Kantas and more even across the board (the Yamaha AVR amp dosen't have the power to harness the impedance dips is my take), but still the lower midrange is lacking for my taste. Sound is still a bit "forward and thin".

Findings:

• Kantas are revealing. Clearly more revaling than the Arias (no surprise).
• Speaker cables make a clear difference with the Kantas. Didn't notice this so much on the Arias. I have a pair of QED revelation signature cables that calms the forwardness and "compressed fatiguing sound" that appear more clearly with for example Supra Ply 3.4 cables. QED rounds off both the bass and the treble a bit. The same QED cable on the Arias sounded dull and lifeless compared to my Supra cables. The cheapest Supra cables I have (some really cheap 2.5mm) stretches both the base and treble up in range, most notably using the Yamaha amp. Love the bass punch and bass stretch downwards, but the sound was fatiguing on the Kantas (much distortion?).
• The Kantas can be placed "quite close" to the wall. The bass is so controlled that the boominess isn't that bad as with the Arias for example. Makes the midrange a bit fuller also.
• The Kantas probably are quite thin in the mids by design.
• Probably the source (streamer/pre amp) in the AVR is not the best. No idea about the sound signature of the pre stage of the AVR.

I still of course have to:

• Test some better sources for the Purify and Kantas, Spotify Connect through an AVR is probably not the best source
• Looking into either a streamer/DAC/preamp combo or separates. I need to check with some professionals what they recommend. Would be good if I can integrate the 2 Purify front channels into a 5.1 combo easily...
• Also I will probably try some different speaker cables after that.

 

[Dismayed]

I don’t have Focal speakers, but I do drive Martin Logans with an Aragon 4004 MkII. The Aragon produces 400 Watts into 4 ohms. They are only available used, but they are a bargain at $1,000 - $1,500.

 

[Dismayed]

Jim

Painting the edges of CDs green also really opens up the sound. And don’t forget to add little magic wooden disks to the listening room. Then there’s the ultimate tweak: orient all electronics to magnetic North.

 

[Gary_G]

Painting the edges of CDs green also really opens up the sound. And don’t forget to add little magic wooden disks to the listening room. Then there’s the ultimate tweak: orient all electronics to magnetic North.

Don't forget Magnetic North is always moving.............

 

[Dismayed]

Don't forget Magnetic North is always moving.............

I never said that achieving ultimate sound would be easy!