Amplifier for Focal Kanta Nº2

[VintageFlanker]

Welcome,

Speaker cables make a clear difference with the Kantas.

No, they do not. With whatever speakers.

the Purify

It's Purifi.

Clearly more revaling than the Arias (no surprise).

Why "no surprise"? Just because these are more expensive?

Love the bass punch and bass stretch downwards, but the sound was fatiguing on the Kantas (much distortion?).

Nonsense. A speaker cable is a passive component and has zero influence on distortion. Worst case scenario is a resistance too high that may affect HF frequency response but it would be very unlikely with any 2.5mm2 (and not 2.5mm) cable under normal domestic lengths.

Also I will probably try some different speaker cables after that.

You will lose a lot of time to do so. Unless to temporarily satisfy your expectation bias. Weeks/months after, you will just want to try new ones...

I need to check with some professionals what they recommend.

That's explain a lot. Guess what they will say: the pricier the better.

 

[notsodeadlizard]

Hello guys, so i am looking for a new amplifier for my Focal Kanta Nº2's and would really appreciate some suggestions.

I tried a Class D amp with HypeX Ncore modules (TEAC AP-701) but they definitely didn't work with the Kanta's. They work really great with sonus faber speakers for example, but with the Kanta's the sound is very forward and thin, clearly lacking in the mids/bass and not enjoyable at all for the type of music i listen to (mostly rock).
I also have the naim uniti nova, which pairs better with the Kanta's, but looking for a bigger soundstage and a less forward sound and also a solution that i can use an external streamer/dac, which the nova doesn't allow.

My budget is about 6K Euros. I have a TEAC UD-701N preamp/dac/streamer, so i do not need a all in one. It can be either an integrated, or a poweramp. I also do not mind buying used, quite the opposite really, if i can get a better value for money.

Really appreciate some suggestions

Why not ask those who know these speakers best, Focal themselves.
You have excellent speakers of very high class.
I think that you will get something like this answer.
Buy any adequate for these speakers class AB amplifier, Rotel Michi for example, or something of class A even, your budget allows, you are going to listen to music and not save electricity.
Listen to music and don't waste time on questionable advice.

 

[delta76]

Why not ask those who know these speakers best, Focal themselves.
You have excellent speakers of very high class.
I think that you will get something like this answer.
Buy any adequate for these speakers class AB amplifier, Rotel Michi for example, or something of class A even, your budget allows, you are going to listen to music and not save electricity.
Listen to music and don't waste time on questionable advice.

they will likely suggest a Naim amp. You are not getting any wiser with conflict of interest here.

 

[VintageFlanker]

Why not ask those who know these speakers best, Focal themselves.

Because whatever how competent they are designing speakers, they talk with a lot of BS when it comes to marketing (having chatted with them quite a few times, both emails and IRL). Focal will most likely recommend Naim amps and also, to wait until the burn-in period ends... They may also come with stupid cables recommandations. Anyway...

 

[Donald DAC]

Well, anyways, @Diecastt the takeway from my side is that with the same speaker placement with an Aria 936 and a Kanta 2 speaker, the Kanta should put out deeper, punchier, more pronounced and more controlled lower and upper bass. That is regardless of how my cat measures (quite absorbing is my guess, haven't measuerd . This is at least my hands on (ears on) experience with my gear in my room. If that is not the case I had a few controversial cheap remedies to test out if you dare take the step

 

[polmuaddib]

I still of course have to:

• Test some better sources for the Purify and Kantas, Spotify Connect through an AVR is probably not the best source
• Looking into either a streamer/DAC/preamp combo or separates. I need to check with some professionals what they recommend. Would be good if I can integrate the 2 Purify front channels into a 5.1 combo easily...
• Also I will probably try some different speaker cables after that.

Are you serious? Troll maybe?

 

[Adi777]

Why call out trolls? Wouldn't it be better to suggest something from yourself? Suggest an idea?

 

[polmuaddib]

Suggest an idea?

I have suggested. As have others. OP ignores for some reason and persists on doing it his way.
Which is fine on other subjective based websites where they can talk cables and amps and whetever influencing the sound.
But here, after all the measurements, all the texts being written by members, tutorials... it's insulting.
So I have not called out. I have sincerely asked.

 

[Adi777]

it's insulting.

Lol, okay.

 

[Diecastt]

Well, i have yet to receive the Timekeeper's, so i still cannot give any new updates regarding that. At this moment and after doing a couple more testing i currently only believe in two possibilities:
1. The Kanta's need a amplifier that has emphasis on the mids to sound it's best (to my ears) and as such class d amps (or other properly neutral accurate amps) won't do the job.
2. The TEAC cannot deal with the load of the kanta's.

It will probably be one way or the other.

As for some of the more recent suggestions, i do not believe nor i have heard a cable that makes any difference, and i have heard cables that cost 5-10k euros, so for me that is snake oil.

Having said that, i appreciate your feeedback in regard to your own issue. I also have no doubt that the Kanta's are indeed more revealing, not because of their price, but because of the beryllium twitter. If one hears the aria's and the Kanta's in the same space, that difference will be clearly noticeable, as is the deeper bass on the Kanta's (in normal situations).

In the end all i want is to properly enjoy my music, and that i can listen to it for hours without it being fatiguing. Currently that is definitely not the case, so i'm hoping i can reach that goal regardless of what ends up being the issue.

 

[delta76]

1. The Kanta's need a amplifier that has emphasis on the mids to sound it's best (to my ears) and as such class d amps (or other properly neutral accurate amps) won't do the job.
2. The TEAC cannot deal with the load of the kanta's.

It seems you have been ignoring my suggestions, so here's my last try: an amp should not be emphasizing on any frequency. it should remain as flat/clean as possible.
what you want is EQ, maybe through a DSP, you boosted the digital signal where it's easiest and cleanest.

if you want to find an amp to "pair" with your Kanta, it's your choice. but it's not the best way to do it.

 

[Diecastt]

It seems you have been ignoring my suggestions, so here's my last try: an amp should not be emphasizing on any frequency. it should remain as flat/clean as possible.
what you want is EQ, maybe through a DSP, you boosted the digital signal where it's easiest and cleanest.

if you want to find an amp to "pair" with your Kanta, it's your choice. but it's not the best way to do it.

If it ends up being option no. 1 when i'm talking about using an amp to emphasize the mids, there are several possibilities, like, for example using a tube preamp. Your suggestion is also another possibility.

And let's get something out of the way, i haven't ignored any suggestion. At this point i haven't done anything definitive. Like i said, i only bought the timekeeper's because they have absolutely no risk, since worst case scenario i get all the money back, and i ended up testing another amplifier which i'm very curious about.

 

[Aerith Gainsborough]

I have also done some more testing, as i also have the Focal Aria 926, and ended up trying them with the TEAC AP-701, and the pair sounds a lot better providing a more bassier/fuller sound, so this actually might be due to the amp not being able to properly deal with the load of the Kanta's.

From what I read, Arias are "warmer" sounding in general than most of the other Focals. Focal usually has a bright/clear/forward sonic signature.

Your amp should be able to deal with the Kantas no Problem but it might not be to your liking. It's entirely possible. When I switched from my old Titanium HD to the RME ADI 2 DAC, my Focal Clear sounded cold and lifeless. I was definitely missing that 35 Ohm output impedance. A little EQ setting on the RME easily fixed that.

So, you have 2 options:

1) Find an amp with a higher output impedance to bring the bass up by sacrificing some precision. Basically: classic "audiophile component matching".
Really, no other parameter on an amp makes a notable difference, provided it can handle the load.

2) Realize that you are in 2023 not 1985, stick to a transparent amp and use DSP to fine-tune the sonic signature to your liking.
Added perk: you can also improve your general sound quality by adding room correction and dampening annoying room modes.

 

[Diecastt]

Regarding DSP/EQ, unfortunately my TEAC UD-701N preamp/dac/streamer doesn't have the possibility to make those adjustments, and i think i cannot use a hardware EQ with it. (please do let me know if you guys think there is a way to connect it). If that's not the case, i think the only way (without changing the teac) would be to get a pc in my listening room, and connecting the teac to it and use a software EQ. But that solution isn't really feasible atm. If there are other options, please let me know. I would really prefer not to change the UD-701N, as i really like it, that's why that wouldn't be my prefered solution

 

[Axo1989]

Totally agree we should not jump to technical conclusions, that's a good way to waste money.

Totally agree that on paper the Hypex should be fine.

But - the description of the sound does mirror my own experience with a Focal loudspeaker that has an almost identical impedance/phase response to the Kanta.

In my case I assumed that the unsatisfactory LF performance was an inherent quality of the speaker. Until I coincidentally impulse-bought a used Krell, hooked it up to the speakers and the problem went away.

As being able to measure exactly what is going on in the OP's system is not a possibility I think that experimentation based on prior experience is not an unacceptable approach.

I had a similar experience so I think the suggestion you offer in the previous post (that all amplifiers don't operate optimally into all loads) is pretty straightforward. I'm not surprised that some will be dubious without listening tests controlled for bias etc (@polmuaddib's following post for example) but that isn't always practical.

Here's a photo from a couple of years back where I was comparing a class D to class A. (The little box on top is the class D).

Did you post about that here at the time?

 

[ZolaIII]

Can we see your speakers placement and do you have UMIK (1)?
Regarding DSP/EQ sure you can patch it in (DSP procesor trough ADC analog input to DAC analog output to amplifier) depending on the rest of system connection typology you chose which way you want to follow (balanced/unbalanced and regarding sub's inputs and number as both streamer and amp have both).
Still measured response and picture of speaker placement should be mandatory not to persue killing fly with jack-hammer if their is a simple way to do it like horizontal (off) axe hinging.
Still room and placement take the lead (as usual) so measuring received response is must.

 

[Mart68]

I had a similar experience so I think the suggestion you offer in the previous post (that all amplifiers don't operate optimally into all loads) is pretty straightforward. I'm not surprised that some will be dubious without listening tests controlled for bias etc (@polmuaddib's following post for example) but that isn't always practical.



Did you post about that here at the time?

No that's from before I joined.

 

[OCA]

Have a look at the attached Audio-Bestenliste (sorry it's in German!). They assign an AK (AUDIO-Kennzahl) value to speakers (also to the amps) depending on their impedance/load and emphasize that an amp to drive these speakers should have an AK value at least equal to that of the speaker. For Kanta 2, given AK is 62. This takes all tube amps out of the equation bar a few hybrids (McIntosh, Unison). I have experienced first hand Naim Supernait 2 (AK 61) not having enough juice to bring the best out of these speakers. I almost doubted the quality of the sound of these speakers at some point. I have now upgraded to Michi X3 (AK 77) and it's completely different. Apparently Focals tend to require better and better amplification higher up their range:

The guys also classify speakers for their ideal environment by;

• room size
• placement (distance from rear wall)
• room acoustics (reverb time based on room furniture, <400ms, 400-600ms, >600ms)

Accordingly Kanta 2 is MGAHF (mid-size or large rooms, reverb time above 500ms - likes reflective rooms, and should be placed min 90cm away from the wall)

I hope this helps in your choice of speaker/amp combos.

PS speaker cable cross section area and length can make a difference (@amirm to confirm). Naim amps for example do not have extra inductance networks in their output. They prefer the more elegant solution (according to Naim) of allowing the speaker cable to provide the correct inductance and capacitance. And this requires a minimum of 3.5 metres (ideally 5m) length of cable of a certain gauge per speaker.

 

[OCA]

...and for all the Kanta 2 owners out there who apply digital correction, here's their crossover phase linearization settings for rePhase (copy and "load from clipboard")

rePhase settings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Edit:


FYI I've updated Focal Kanta 2 crossover and box phase correction (polarity inverted 24db/oct at 2700Hz and 12dB/oct at 260 Hz and a time reversed 1st order all pass at the port frequency (41Hz) as below. You should hear at least a center stage rise:


rePhase settings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 

[Qba3d]

Welcome,


No, they do not. With whatever speakers.

It's Purifi.

Why "no surprise"? Just because these are more expensive?

Nonsense. A speaker cable is a passive component and has zero influence on distortion. Worst case scenario is a resistance too high that may affect HF frequency response but it would be very unlikely with any 2.5mm2 (and not 2.5mm) cable under normal domestic lengths.

You will lose a lot of time to do so. Unless to temporarily satisfy your expectation bias. Weeks/months after, you will just want to try new ones...

That's explain a lot. Guess what they will say: the pricier the better.

I am always shocked when someone says that speaker cables make no difference or that all amps sound the same.

I happen to test multiple cables wanting to see and these were very simple eq tools that also happen to change stage and imaging. Please don’t try to outsmart everyone and just use ears. I also did blind tests on my family and well, they always picked the difference.

Let’s not even start amp discussions.

Peace