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7.1.4 setup, Genelec vs KEF

IamJF

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EDIT-Pano-1-scaled.jpg
That's not an Atmos setup when I guess the angles right?
And Atmos for a studio is at least 7.1.4 as far I know?
 

juliangst

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That's not an Atmos setup when I guess the angles right?
And Atmos for a studio is at least 7.1.4 as far I know?
Not sure about the height speaker angles but if they’re correctly placed this should qualify as a 5.1.4 or 5.0.4 atmos setup
 

Sammy135

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Not sure about the height speaker angles but if they’re correctly placed this should qualify as a 5.1.4 or 5.0.4 atmos setup

Do we know the official dolby spec that the trinnov and Sony receivers "map" to.

AFAIK, only those 2 can map to the official dolby and dts spec and layout. Now im not sure, but im pretty sure the official spec is in ceilings, not on wall heights, I could be wrong though.
 

juliangst

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but im pretty sure the official spec is in ceilings, not on wall heights
Dolby doesn't say that you need in ceiling or on ceiling. They just call it 'overhead speakers'.
It doesn't matter if those speakers are in the ceiling or on the ceiling
 

IamJF

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This is the Dolby spec for Home Cinema and 5.1.4:
1697233201602.png

The height have a higher tolerance in angle as I thought, with 30° it's quite possible to put them close to the main speakers. I wouldn't do so but you can. Rear speakers look to be to far in the back but I still can imagine it sounds fine.

I will go 5.1.2 in my living room cinema and played a lot with what's possible in that setup and that's the only really working configuration. Better a few speaker less as a lot of speakers where they don't belong.
 

holdingpants01

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I can't imagine skipping the side speakers and going only so far as to end with 5.1.4 rather than 7.1.4. I would prefer doing 7.1.2 for a 10 channel setup. For music they sides and back are way more important than even center channel, which is mostly unused. Because of the anatomy it's hard to differentiate between back surround and back top so those should be the first to go IMO
 
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IamJF

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I have the same dilemma!
What's your situation?

When we are talking about CINEMA (not watching a crummy little TV :cool:) you noramlly use an acoustic transparent screen and put the front speakers behind that. This has so many benefits (e.g. voice location, you can put a lot of absorption behind the screen, hide the tech etc). And Genelec or Neumann are better suited for that.
With a serious preamp you could also use digital outputs for the speakers.

Depending on room size and SPL level you really need I would say a set of KH150 and KH120ii would be a "minimum standard" which should be already really good. Add a self built (double) bass array and bigger speakers if needed/wanted and you should be good.

But the room ... the room is always the interesting part :)
 

IamJF

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I can't imagine skipping the side speakers and going only so far as to end with 5.1.4 rather than 7.1.4. I would prefer doing 7.1.2 for a 10 channel setup. For music they're way more important than even center channel which is mostly unused
I did a test setup with 7.1 instead of 5.1 and was surprised that there's a significant difference! In such a free standing setup where you have all possibilities I also would do 7.1.2 instead of 5.1.4!
But a center is a must for movies.
 

juliangst

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I can't imagine skipping the side speakers and going only so far as to end with 5.1.4 rather than 7.1.4. I would prefer doing 7.1.2 for a 10 channel setup. For music they sides are way more important than even center channel which is mostly unused. Because of the anatomy it's hard to differentiate between back surround and back top so those should be the first to go IMO
Totally agree that side surrounds are more important than the center. There are some tracks that do rely the center but most ones that I checked only use the center for vocals without any instrumentation at a much lower leven than left and right.

I would even ignore the center completely if atmos music is more important than movie watching
 

juliangst

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I did a test setup with 7.1 instead of 5.1 and was surprised that there's a significant difference! In such a free standing setup where you have all possibilities I also would do 7.1.2 instead of 5.1.4!
But a center is a must for movies.
For movies I would also recommend to do a 7.1.2 instead of a 5.1.4 mainly for the reason that a lot of movies don't utilize 4 atmos channels and just send a mono signal to the left front and left rear atmos speakers and the right atmos speakers respectively.
There will be a lot more seperation between the surrounds and rear surrounds than between the front and rear atmos speakers.

With atmos music it's kind of a different story. Many tracks I analysed have a lot of different sounds happening between the front atmos speakers and rear atmos speakers while the rear surround speakers don't get a lot of work.

It also looks like that the instrumentation of the front atmos speakers is the same as the instruments that play on the front speakers while the instruments of the rear atmos speakers reflect the instruments that play on the surrounds. This could heavily depend on the music mix and genre though.
 

IamJF

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Can you recommend any interesting Atmos music? I got the tip from Kraftwerk but the BluRay is not available any more/at the moment.

Mixing music in Atmos is in it's absolute beginnings. There is no real "standard" or "howto", it's like the early times of Stereo (like the sins the Beatles did :p).
Having the front instruments in the front ceiling and back instruments in the back ceiling sounds logical at first but on the 2nd thought ... do we need height elevation for the whole front stage? Reverb would be in both similar, so it seems to be a panning decision.
I would probably try to stick with the "howto" what the film industry does and would use the center for main voice (+ Snare?) and be very careful to be mono compatible in the ceiling speakers. Thinking about it ... I would LOVE to have a center speaker in a mix!
 
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juliangst

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Can you recommend any interesting Atmos music? I got the tip from Kraftwerk but the BluRay is not available any more/at the moment
I usually just listen to apple‘s spatial audio playlists. One artist a lot of people recommend is John Williams with all the Star Wars movie soundtracks.

do we need height elevation for the whole front stage? Reverb would be in both similar, so it seems to be a panning decision
I guess artists just have to get used to mixing in atmos and doing more creative stuff with it. Some pop music songs really feel like they just used an atmos upmixer
 

Ellebob

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I wilL give a different perspective with experience from where I work and doing custom home theaters, media rooms and surround systems. This will somewhat vary depending one's situation. In general I would choose 5.2.4 over 7.2.4 for most people. The reason is when designing a theater we start with the seating and the type of seating plays a role in this determination if you are only using 9 channels. In many homes people want very big comfortable recliners and that is fine. However, It does come with a downside. That is the large super comfy recliners from an acoustic point of view is the equivalent of placing a big pillow behind your head. You will never get the full effect of back speakers if your ears are blocked by the recliner. That doesn't mean you will get no effect but it is not as good compared to seating where your head is above the seat. So in this instance 5.2.4 I think is a better choice than 7.2.2. Also, notice that their should be a minimum of 2 subs:)
 

holdingpants01

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I wilL give a different perspective with experience from where I work and doing custom home theaters, media rooms and surround systems. This will somewhat vary depending one's situation. In general I would choose 5.2.4 over 7.2.4 for most people. The reason is when designing a theater we start with the seating and the type of seating plays a role in this determination if you are only using 9 channels. In many homes people want very big comfortable recliners and that is fine. However, It does come with a downside. That is the large super comfy recliners from an acoustic point of view is the equivalent of placing a big pillow behind your head. You will never get the full effect of back speakers if your ears are blocked by the recliner. That doesn't mean you will get no effect but it is not as good compared to seating where your head is above the seat. So in this instance 5.2.4 I think is a better choice than 7.2.2. Also, notice that their should be a minimum of 2 subs:)
I think the 1 in x.1.x system is not the amount of subs but LFE channels, you can have 10 subs but if they are in mono then it's still x.1.x system. I don't even know if it's even possible to have a real x.2.x system, my guess is that AVR producers use the bigger number to market the separate LFE channel outputs with its own separate processing, but it's still just a mono signal just EQed differently. Dolby Atmos Renderer (for music) have only one LFE channel, but maybe it's different for movies?
 

Sancus

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juliangst

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I think the 1 in x.1.x system is not the amount of subs but LFE channels, you can have 10 subs but if they are in mono then it's still x.1.x system. I don't even know if it's even possible to have a real x.2.x system, my guess is that AVR producers use the bigger number to market the separate LFE channel outputs with its own separate processing, but it's still just a mono signal just EQed differently. Dolby Atmos Renderer (for music) have only one LFE channel, but maybe it's different for movies?
That's correct. There only exists x.1.x because there only one LFE signal. But it's common practice refer to the number of subs like 7.4.4.
I always use the second number for independently managed subwoofers. If I had an 8 subwoofer bass array at the front wall it would still be x.1.x because they all play the same signal.
 

juliangst

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People have already posted images, but, the bottom of the ls50 meta has an 8mm bolt hole so anything you can bolt into that will hold it securely.

And since they are coaxial, they can be inverted no problem which is probably what's going on in that image.
But are those bolt holes strong enough to hold them upside down? They're originally meant for the S2 stands
 

Sancus

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But are those bolt holes strong enough to hold them upside down? They're originally meant for the S2 stands
Dunno, but if they're a threaded metal hole I would say probably yes. They don't weigh THAT much. Could always just ask Kef, or test it out yourself by bolting one to something and inverting it over a cushion for a week. If the mount still feels solid after that then it'll be fine.

This is one reason I prefer studio monitors for multi-channel though as they usually have better mounting systems. And better unit to unit variation.
 

juliangst

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Dunno, but if they're a threaded metal hole I would say probably yes. They don't weigh THAT much. Could always just ask Kef, or test it out yourself by bolting one to something and inverting it over a cushion for a week. If the mount still feels solid after that then it'll be fine.

This is one reason I prefer studio monitors for multi-channel though as they usually have better mounting systems. And better unit to unit variation.
Arendal and perlisten also have good mounting options.
The LS50 are also a bit large for atmos from an aesthetics point of view.
The Arendal 1961 bookshelf has basically the same performance with VESA mount and 40% of the cabinet volume
 

Vacceo

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Well, if the point is keeping it KEF (though I agree both Arendal and Perlisten are great height speakers), KEF has the R8 which Amir has tested to quite good results.
 
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