• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

64 Audio U12t Review (IEM)

Rate this IEM:

  • 1. Poor (headless panther)

    Votes: 33 15.7%
  • 2. Not terrible (postman panther)

    Votes: 62 29.5%
  • 3. Fine (happy panther)

    Votes: 79 37.6%
  • 4. Great (golfing panther)

    Votes: 36 17.1%

  • Total voters
    210

mrbungle

Active Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2021
Messages
177
Likes
175
Location
Boston
Crinacle has tested and ranked nearly 1000 IEMs.

He puts these in 2nd place, 300 or so places above the Fiio FD5 that Amir seems to think are great. Crinacle is the most respected IEM reviewer on the planet at the moment.

I wouldn't particularly value his opinion on which DAC or speakers to buy, but there's something not right here.

”C+ Pretty standard V-shaped tuning though surprisingly proficient in technicalities.”

I’m not sure that one got a thorough test though. Not a fan of such a bass boost myself, but I guess there are a lot of great low distortion IEMs dismissed that could be similarly EQ’ed to something delightful.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,846
So I am supposed to agree with what the others say, damn the data, my experience and my listening tests? You have any research that backs accuracy of the consensus of reviewers as you state? This is how reviewers did in speaker listening tests:

ListenerPerformance.jpg
Hi Amir, not debating anything here, but there are no title on this graph, may you tell us what it is? Relative performance of what?
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,663
Likes
240,944
Location
Seattle Area
So the measurements are inexact, and they are not the same as a number of other measurements of the same IEM, but deviation based on those potentially flawed measurements to "the best but not very good" target available is the correct basis for reaching a recommendation?
No. I always, always perform listening tests with EQ correction to the target and evaluate whether that is an improvement or not. If it is, then it is prima facie evidence that the target is correct and headphone response as measured is correct. No one else is doing this verification path.

Now, evaluating the EQ is subjective and some people genuine like some other sound signature. So there is no 100% science here but to equate what I do with others do is plain wrong or I would not be testing IEMs. Or headphones.
 
OP
amirm

amirm

Founder/Admin
Staff Member
CFO (Chief Fun Officer)
Joined
Feb 13, 2016
Messages
44,663
Likes
240,944
Location
Seattle Area

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,846
So I am supposed to agree with what the others say, damn the data, my experience and my listening tests? You have any research that backs accuracy of the consensus of reviewers as you state? This is how reviewers did in speaker listening tests:

ListenerPerformance.jpg
That's cool, but I think you are the living proof that it's possible to be a trained listener and an Audio Reviewer at the same time. I don't know the credential of the people referred to here, maybe they have train, maybe they haven't.
 

brandall10

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2019
Messages
307
Likes
364
So I am supposed to agree with what the others say, damn the data, my experience and my listening tests? You have any research that backs accuracy of the consensus of reviewers as you state? This is how reviewers did in speaker listening tests:

Not saying that at all, just stating what the sentiment is amongst the head-fi set. There have been other products like this that didn't live up under the microscope (ie. Abyss)
 

JWAmerica

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Messages
299
Likes
195
No one would be arguing about this review were it not for the $2000 price tag.
 

brandall10

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2019
Messages
307
Likes
364
But Amir is putting the U12t on the recommended list... I translate that as a positive review no?

Positive-ish due to lowered expectations, not best or close to it. Maybe the Abyss isn't the best comparison as it's an obvious face-plant.
 

PeteL

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
3,303
Likes
3,846
Positive-ish due to lowered expectations, not best or close to it. Maybe the Abyss isn't the best comparison as it's an obvious face-plant.
Quire honestly, no matter the reviewer, It's my firm believe that there is no such thing as "the best". Olive's Data is impressive but we are not at a point where prefferences are completely out thewindow and there is one single truth. its statistic based data collection, It shows a convergence, not a resolved equation.
 

brandall10

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2019
Messages
307
Likes
364
Quire honestly, no matter the reviewer, It's my firm believe that there is no such thing as "the best". Olive's Data is impressive but we are not at a point where prefferences are completely out thewindow and there is one single truth. its statistic based data collection, It shows a convergence, not a resolved equation.

Sure, but that's the general impression for this IEM of the head-fi set. It's not seen as flawless, but as the best set of compromises. And of course not everyone thinks that, but it's enough that it seems to have this pretty vaulted reputation, again as something like the JH-13 had for many years, and I guess the UE10 had in the mid aughts.

I'm certainly surprised by the amount of distortion.
 

Madlop26

Active Member
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
190
Likes
333
Amir said
So I am supposed to agree with what the others say, damn the data, my experience and my listening tests? You have any research that backs accuracy of the consensus of reviewers as you state?
Lol Amir, don’t get too upset, you have shown objective data, these IEMs can not be on the top, it is a closed case. If Crinacle the most respected online IEM reviewer have put these on top, it is expected a long list of followers, just human nature, Data rules over expectation bias.
 
Last edited:

JWAmerica

Active Member
Joined
Jul 8, 2021
Messages
299
Likes
195
>If the most respectable IEM reviewer put these on top, it is expect long list of followers, just human nature, Data rules over expectation bias

Please rephrase this in English.
 

Presently42

Active Member
Joined
Jul 30, 2019
Messages
174
Likes
240
Location
Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Lol Amir, don’t get too upset, you have shown objective data showing these can not be on the top, it is a close case. If the most respectable IEM reviewer put these on top, it is expect long list of followers, just human nature, Data rules over expectation bias
Forgive me for being off topic, but why was I misquoted in your post? Indeed, why was I quoted at all?
 

Madlop26

Active Member
Joined
May 2, 2021
Messages
190
Likes
333
JWAmerica, some corrections done, English is my second language, I hope I meet your expectations
 

Blake

Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
34
Likes
51
I tried these at CanJam last year and loved them. I wasn't particularly interested in IEMs but kept reading that I should try some 64 Audio stuff, and these really surprised me when I did. When I've used IEMs in the past, they've primarily been Etymotic. These had a much richer, fuller sound to my ears (mainly a better low end, I guess), and I had a really good time with them.

When I tried them, I had no idea how much they cost, nor their cost relative to the other three models I tried (Nio, Trio, Fourte). Interestingly, I liked the U12t better than all the others, and two of those were even more expensive. My least favorite? The Fourte, which turned out to be the most expensive. (Sounded a bit sibilant to me. YMMV.)

I'll add that the graph probably lines up with my tastes close enough to make sense. I commonly use headphones with EQ in the neighborhood of Harman, but typically with a high shelf filter to dial things over 2 Khz back a little bit. That tonality wouldn't exactly match these, but it's probably close enough for my ears that it explains me finding these pleasing.

Would I pay $2000 for them? Seems like a moot question when I couldn't if I wanted to. But I'd certainly be on the lookout for something cheaper with similar tonality.
 
Last edited:

antdroid

Active Member
Reviewer
Joined
Apr 1, 2018
Messages
111
Likes
250
Location
Seattle
I tried these at CanJam last year and loved them. I wasn't particularly interested in IEMs but kept reading that I should try some 64 Audio stuff, and these really surprised me when I did. When I've used IEMs in the past, they've primarily been Etymotic. These had a much richer, fuller sound to my ears (mainly a better low end, I guess), and I had a really good time with them.

When I tried them, I had no idea how much they cost, nor their cost relative to the other three models I tried (Nio, Trio, Fourte). Interestingly, I liked the U12t better than all the others, and two of those were even more expensive. My least favorite? The Fourte, which turned out to be the most expensive. (Sounded a bit sibilant to me. YMMV.)

I'll add that the graph probably lines up with my tastes close enough to make sense. I commonly use headphones with EQ in the neighborhood of Harman, but typically with a high shelf filter to dial things over 2 Khz back a little bit. That tonality wouldn't exactly match these, but it's probably close enough for my ears that it explains me finding these pleasing.

Would I pay $2000 for them? Seems like a moot question when I couldn't if I wanted to. But I'd certainly be on the lookout for something cheapter with similar tonality.

depending on your budget, a few of the thieaudio iems are similar in FR like the clairvoyance, which was loosely trying to mimic the u12t tonality, but with a different driver configuration, from what i recall speaking with the designer.

37832CC8-A232-47FF-B2FC-F0F0C4F0E4D9.png
 
D

Deleted member 22141

Guest
Oh, I thought everyone is familiar with that work from Dr. Sean Olive. See: http://seanolive.blogspot.com/2008/12/part-2-differences-in-performances-of.html

It is reliability factor of listeners when performing listening tests of speakers. See my video here:


Yes I have seen that. EVERYONE has seen that. All the "serious" reviewers have seen it, I'm not talking about the 2m sub youtubers who cover tech - I'm talking about the ones on that squidly link and Crinacle, etc. All the manufacturers have seen it too.

Consider this:

All of the manufacturers are familiar with the Toole/Olive research and the Harman curve.

Most of the manufacturers have a line of 5-10 IEMs, different models and usually at least one of their models (past or present) conforms very closely to the Harman curve.

If the research was an accurate representation of consumer preference then by now the market would have spoken very clearly; IEMs which matched the Harman curve would dramatically outsell those that did not and the only remaining models would be those that matched this research.

We have data points from millions of consumers and tens or hundreds of thousands of "serious" IEM users - those obsessively into it as a hobby who all own many sets, and musicians and DJs who use them professionally.

The Harman curve conforming IEMs are NOT the best selling ones. The research doesn't match the real world data generated across vastly larger sample sizes as shown by purchasing decisions over the last couple of decades.

Why hasn't JBL simply dominated the IEM market and driven all the other manufacturers out of business? Do you really think Sony, Sennheiser, etc. haven't done their own research?

You can't escape this fact by deriding "stupid" consumers either, they were the source of the data that fed into Harman curve in the first place.

At the very least you don't seem to understand that manufacturers of $2,000 IEMs are not aiming at the general consumer target market, in the same way as Ferrari don't pay slavish attention to the research which drives the development of the Toyota Corolla.

The hobbyist/professional IEM market (as distinct from the general planet-wide market) has room for variation, different models appeal to people who may find themselves not exactly aligned with the Harman preference curve. This market is easily in the tens of thousands, likely many hundreds of thousands of units shipped annually, the majority in China.

So a review of a $2,000 set complaining about deviance from the Harman curve as though they simply don't get it is like a review of a Ferrari complaining about the difficulty of getting a child seat fitted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Top Bottom