He graphed it himself in the video:Do we have more data points for confirming a change in tuning? If yes, by much of a change is it from the initially released units?
He graphed it himself in the video:Do we have more data points for confirming a change in tuning? If yes, by much of a change is it from the initially released units?
I know and I did watch the video about this. It's still one example. They probably have sold hundreds of these. I do think the chances we get clarity on this is slim due to the pace of the hobby.He graphed it himself in the video:
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I think one of the reasons for such good soundstaging is no crossover and a driver that can handle full-range audio in a single unit. Aka no phase disturbances, which audio engineers seem to ignore, since they labor under an incorrect assumption that imaginary numbers cannot be "heard" and then happily throw out half the information thinking they can reside entirely in the power domain. https://gubner.ece.wisc.edu/notes/MagnitudeAndPhaseOfComplexNumbers.pdf
That is not the case, unless you use a fancy DSP crossover in an "active speaker" configuration where different phase/frequency/rolloff tradeoffs can be made, but even with fancy DSP filters it's always a compromise. So of course the best option IMHO is to have a theoretically perfect driver that doesn't require a crossover.
"Crossover Networks from A to Linkwit-Riley" (sic -- I probably shouldn't use a reference that doesn't even spell Linkwitz correctly https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linkwitz–Riley_filter )
Is a planar IEM such a driver?? In many cases it is. However, I do wonder what happens as frequencies get higher, triggering vibration modes where multiple "waves" can fit within the driver's diameter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibrations_of_a_circular_membrane
I don't think there is a good, simple, and objective, way to characterize the "soundstage" qualities of an IEM. If we rely on opinions, there are probably as many multi-drivers IEMs with good soundstage than single-driver with equally good soundstage. And there are single-driver IEMs with reportedly bad soundstage.I think one of the reasons for such good soundstaging is no crossover and a driver that can handle full-range audio in a single unit
So what is the group delay graph for? Amir includes it in every one of its reviews... I understand that many will ignore the graph and that it is not necessarily easy to interpret, but it's one of the graphs that may indicate soundstage issues. I don't think it is correct to say that audio engineers ignore anything related to phase disturbances, I think saying that phase disturbances is one of the elements affecting soundstage would be a better statement...Aka no phase disturbances, which audio engineers seem to ignore,
IEM dynamic or planar drivers are perfectly capable of reproducing the entire audible spectrum. However, tuning the FR correctly is, at a minimum, non-trivial. In the IEM world, multi-drivers may be a more flexible path for the audio engineer to model the IEM FR after what marketing wants... And the marketing message is often that the more drivers the better it is!the best option IMHO is to have a theoretically perfect driver that doesn't require a crossover
I have a few planar IEMs besides the MP145. Some sound pretty good as-is... others, as-is, sound like sh#$% (Audeze iSine 10, TinHifi P1). Once more, I don't think the driver technology is necessarily critical... it's mostly about the tradeoffs between marketing wants, cost constraints... and the talent of the audio engineers designing the IEM.Is a planar IEM such a [perfect] driver?? In many cases it is.
If you do the maths with a typical IEM driver size and say 20kHz as your highest frequency, there are not many vibration modes to deal with in an IEM.I do wonder what happens as frequencies get higher, triggering vibration modes where multiple "waves" can fit within the driver's diameter:
If you do the maths with a typical IEM driver size and say 20kHz as your highest frequency, there are not many vibration modes to deal with in an IEM.
I think it's more about bouncing waves in the ear canal...
The results showed that the fundamental resonant frequency of the radial field piezoelectric diaphragm decreases from 16.43 kHz to 11.92 kHz when the diameter increases from 9.2 mm to 10.8 mm
Are you thinking about something alike cone breakup in large speaker drivers?Anybody got an estimate for the resonance modes and frequencies of those modes for a 14.5 mm driver using the kind of material used for the mp-145?
Zero:2s have even less distortion and their soundstage is very limited.Are you thinking about something alike cone breakup in large speaker drivers?
Even if it is a significant phenomenon for planar IEMs—and you may be absolutely correct here—wouldn’t it translate into some kind of (measurable!) distortion more than phase issues?
The MP145 distortion levels are extremely low… One could assume it’s a key to the good soundstage, but I don’t think the cause and effect relation is that simple…
There isn't a conclusive determination of what might add to perception of soundstage in IEMs. I definitely think it's much more subjective and varies a lot more from person to person, than with overears. With overears there is variation in perception too but there is a general tendency to agree stuff like the HD800S or oval Hifimans have very wide soundstage and the HD600/HD650 is very narrow.Zero:2s have even less distortion and their soundstage is very limited.
There isn't a conclusive determination of what might add to perception of soundstage in IEMs. I definitely think it's much more subjective and varies a lot more from person to person, than with overears. With overears there is variation in perception too but there is a general tendency to agree stuff like the HD800S or oval Hifimans have very wide soundstage and the HD600/HD650 is very narrow.
IEMs there is a lot less agreement, even IEMs that are commonly touted as having good soundstage, you'll find people saying the reverse. There is far more variety of opinion. Possibly as they bypass the pinna and so how they sound to you vs the world is going to vary more depending on your specific anatomy. Insertion depth will also move the insertion resonance you see at 8kHz in graphs, most people that will be more like 6-7kHz. It's 7.5kHz for me, for most IEMs, but I can get it up to 9 or 10 with some IEMs with a deep insertion. So how you perceive the treble is going to vary on that too.
The one obvious difference between them is that the MP145 has more treble, the Zero2 is rolled off. 711 graphs are not accurate as to the details above the insertion resonance, but they can paint a broad picture, and I'd believe the Zero 2 is more rolled off. And there is a tendency there, I think, it's more common for IEMs with higher treble to be perceived as wider. One example of an IEM often consider to have good soundstage is the Final A4000, and it combines a bit of a recess around 2kHz (which is also in over-ears known for soundstage like the Hifimans or HD800S) with a huge boost immediately after it. It does sound wider to me, but it's still an IEM. It can also get a bit tch tch fatiguing although surprisingly not as much as you might think from the graph. Not an IEM for high volume listening.
Personally, I don't find the MP145 exceptionally wide. Not narrow either, but just normal. I don't find their soundstage particularly notable though.
I think Crinacle once said something along the lines of if speaker soundstage is 100, headphones are around 15 and IEMs you are arguing over whether it's 1 or 2, they all have poor soundstage and he doesn't really factor this in a lot. I'm not sure I'd go that far, I have IEMs I'd put over the worst closed backs, like the HD600/650. But it is an indication that it's personal, and I think most people do perceive IEM soundstage to be pretty limited.
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There isn't a conclusive determination of what might add to perception of soundstage in IEMs. I definitely think it's much more subjective and varies a lot more from person to person, than with overears. With overears there is variation in perception too but there is a general tendency to agree stuff like the HD800S or oval Hifimans have very wide soundstage and the HD600/HD650 is very narrow.
IEMs there is a lot less agreement, even IEMs that are commonly touted as having good soundstage, you'll find people saying the reverse. There is far more variety of opinion. Possibly as they bypass the pinna and so how they sound to you vs the world is going to vary more depending on your specific anatomy. Insertion depth will also move the insertion resonance you see at 8kHz in graphs, most people that will be more like 6-7kHz. It's 7.5kHz for me, for most IEMs, but I can get it up to 9 or 10 with some IEMs with a deep insertion. So how you perceive the treble is going to vary on that too.
The one obvious difference between them is that the MP145 has more treble, the Zero2 is rolled off. 711 graphs are not accurate as to the details above the insertion resonance, but they can paint a broad picture, and I'd believe the Zero 2 is more rolled off. And there is a tendency there, I think, it's more common for IEMs with higher treble to be perceived as wider. One example of an IEM often consider to have good soundstage is the Final A4000, and it combines a bit of a recess around 2kHz (which is also in over-ears known for soundstage like the Hifimans or HD800S) with a huge boost immediately after it. It does sound wider to me, but it's still an IEM. It can also get a bit tch tch fatiguing although surprisingly not as much as you might think from the graph. Not an IEM for high volume listening.
Personally, I don't find the MP145 exceptionally wide. Not narrow either, but just normal. I don't find their soundstage particularly notable though.
I think Crinacle once said something along the lines of if speaker soundstage is 100, headphones are around 15 and IEMs you are arguing over whether it's 1 or 2, they all have poor soundstage and he doesn't really factor this in a lot. I'm not sure I'd go that far, I have IEMs I'd put over the worst open backs, like the HD600/650. But it is an indication that it's personal, and I think most people do perceive IEM soundstage to be pretty limited.
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I've switched from a longer (16mm) narrower bore (4mm) to shorter (9mm) wider bore (6mm) silicone tip for the S12. For universal iems, I perceive larger bore sizes with a more open and wider soundstage. One other thing I suspect is depth insertion but I'm not too sure on that. Maybe the soundstage shrinks the deeper you insert your iems. Etymotic iems aren't known for their wide soundstage.I don't think it is only the treble, because I increased considerably them through EQ in my Zero:2s and the soundstage didn't change. This is what I was using with them:
Preamp: -5.0 dB
Filter 1: ON PK Fc 23 Hz Gain -2.0 dB Q 0.800
Filter 2: ON PK Fc 100 Hz Gain 1.5 dB Q 1.000
Filter 3: ON PK Fc 700 Hz Gain 0.9 dB Q 1.400
Filter 4: ON PK Fc 1500 Hz Gain -2.4 dB Q 1.500
Filter 5: ON PK Fc 3800 Hz Gain -0.9 dB Q 1.400
Filter 6: ON PK Fc 5900 Hz Gain 5.3 dB Q 2.000
Filter 7: ON PK Fc 11000 Hz Gain -5.4 dB Q 2.000
Filter 8: ON PK Fc 14000 Hz Gain 6.3 dB Q 2.000
I used to agree with you, but, for me personally, the MP145s have a better soundstage than many of my over-ears. Even than the HD599, which I bought because, allegedly, they had a wider soundstage than the HD600s2; which is a very, very disappointing headphone. Of course, they can't compete with the HE400se in width or with the AKG702 in accuracy, but I think that they are reasonably close, given the form factor. The thing with the AKG702s is that they are so incredible precise in their soundstage, that any other soundstage I hear, even if it is huge, sounds so diffuse and lacking definition... For me, personally, that is the biggest issue with IEMs. Still, I do get a strong out-of-my-head experience with the Hidizs.
I tend to find that as well. Tips do change the FR and between two very different types this can be significant. They can also change perceived bass levels if they create a slight leak, and there are some tips like the Tangzu Tang Sancai designed to do this (although they say to relieve pressure rather than advertising they reduce the bass). The bass usually looks the same either way in 711 graphs as the metal tube of the coupler tends to make a perfect seal with anything. This is the Tripowin Olina with CP100 (narrow long bore) vs Spring Tips (short wide bore):I've switched from a longer (16mm) narrower bore (4mm) to shorter (9mm) wider bore (6mm) silicone tip for the S12. For universal iems, I perceive larger bore sizes with a more open and wider soundstage.
I suspect Michael just got a lemon. I've been looking around newer reviews and graphs of this iem and the pinna gain (@2k) and peaks are much closer to the green measurement (what we deem is OG).He graphed it himself in the video:
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Maybe. It's unusual to get a lemon that matches left and right though, that is usually an indication that it's intentional. He also pulled it apart and noted construction differences. The other graphs are presumably just the "old" version. Would be interesting if someone else gets one and graphs similar.I suspect Michael just got a lemon. I've been looking around newer reviews and graphs of this iem and the pinna gain (@2k) and peaks are much closer to the green measurement (what we deem is OG).
I just noticed that the latest wavelet update removed all the MP-145 settings previously available (w/ different EQs for the three different tips) -- all of which sounded terrible.
& @NielsMayer The AutoEQ profiles are to a bass-light version of Harman, it's the worst of all worlds. AutoEQ software is great and you can EQ to whatever target you like then, not just the one (rather weird) choice the author of AutoEQ made.All the EQ profiles out there are evidently wrong, in my opinion.