5.1.4 Atmos Recommendation

[dustinyo]

Hello,

I am setting up a home theater and looking for Atmos speaker help. This will be in a basement, and the area is 132" X 185" with a 90" ceiling.

I have a Denon AVR-X3800H receiver and budget is around $2,000, but I can be flexible if the bang for the buck warrants it.

Right now I'm kind of leaning towards RSL, a 5.1 combo is $1049 and 4 ceiling speakers at $149 each brings the total to $1645 (possibly less with coupons or sales too) https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg.../?attribute_pa_subwoofer=speedwoofer-10s-mkii

Any thoughts on this or would there be a better option?

 

[Power Pop 23]

The 5.1 combo you suggest may work well for your listening space. Amir has measured the earlier RSL 'CG25' loudspeaker. He noted the the tweeter of the CG25 had wider dispersion than other center channel loudspeakers he had measured and that the horizontal dispersion of the tweeter should improve when a 'CG25' is used vertically - as in a Front L/R loudspeaker

RSL CG25 Center Speaker Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the RSL CG25 center home theater speaker. It is on kind loan from a member and costs US $425. This is an unusual design in that the port goes through a path in the back which kind of resembles a very short/truncated transmission channel...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Amir has not measured the RSL CG23M. His comments on 'CG25' may bode well for using the combo you suggest.


The Polk ES20 loudspeaker may be an alternative for some channels. Amir was impressed with how it measured in his review:

Polk Signature Elite ES20 Review (Bookshelf Speaker)

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Polk Signature Elite ES20 bookshelf speaker. I purchased it from Amazon for US $349 a pair including shipping. I really like the look and finish of this series from Polk. Despite budget pricing, it looks nice and purposeful as you can tell...

www.audiosciencereview.com

 

[GXAlan]

I would swing for the larger 12” subwoofer if you can. The RSLs should be good since Amir liked the center channel with EQ and Audyssey/Dirac are available for your AVR.

 

[gaz]

I recommend 5.2 instead, with subs positioned according to the Harman research. Then your bass response should be good for several listeners and your AVR's XT32 integrates dual subs well.

Also check that the centre speaker will be ok for the spread of your listeners - horizontal MTMs can give poor performance for the outer listeners.

A recent research paper found little advantage of 5.1.4 over 5.1 for movies:

AES E-Library » Influence of Changes in Audio Spatialization on Immersion in Audiovisual Experiences

Understanding the influence of technical system parameters on audiovisual experiences is important for technologists to optimize experiences. The focus in this study was on the influence of changes in audio spatialization (varying the loudspeaker configuration for audio rendering from 2.1 to 5.1...

www.aes.org

 

[dustinyo]

I would swing for the larger 12” subwoofer if you can. The RSLs should be good since Amir liked the center channel with EQ and Audyssey/Dirac are available for your AVR.

Thanks for the tip! And yes, I should have mentioned in my initial post that I did get a Dirac licensee for this receiver, so I will be using it.

 

[GXAlan]

I recommend 5.2 instead, with subs positioned according to the Harman research.

5.2.0 probably sounds better than 5.1.4 if you have multiple viewers and listeners and want even bass.

But since you are doing in-ceiling speakers, it is better to start with 5.1.4 and then year or two from now, add your second sub. Just a lot easier to set up a sub later than try to install ceiling speakers once your basement is already nicely set up.

Atmos is hit or miss. When it is used effectively, it’s great and more and more new streaming content is mixed in Atmos.

 

[dustinyo]

I recommend 5.2 instead, with subs positioned according to the Harman research. Then your bass response should be good for several listeners and your AVR's XT32 integrates dual subs well.

Also check that the centre speaker will be ok for the spread of your listeners - horizontal MTMs can give poor performance for the outer listeners.

A recent research paper found little advantage of 5.1.4 over 5.1 for movies:

AES E-Library » Influence of Changes in Audio Spatialization on Immersion in Audiovisual Experiences

Understanding the influence of technical system parameters on audiovisual experiences is important for technologists to optimize experiences. The focus in this study was on the influence of changes in audio spatialization (varying the loudspeaker configuration for audio rendering from 2.1 to 5.1...

www.aes.org

Wow that's interesting, thank you. I'm not sure if it matters, but I also intend to do some PC and Xbox gaming on this setup, and several of the games I play utilize DTS:X or Dolby Atmos. Looking at that study, it looks like they only tested it with movies. I would guess it wouldn't be a big difference if any for gaming, but people seem to swear by it too.

Also, yes I totally forgot about a second sub, and if the budget allows, I will for sure do that.

 

[GXAlan]

Wow that's interesting, thank you. I'm not sure if it matters, but I also intend to do some PC and Xbox gaming on this setup, and several of the games I play utilize DTS:X or Dolby Atmos. Looking at that study, it looks like they only tested it with movies. I would guess it wouldn't be a big difference if any for gaming, but people seem to swear by it too.

Also, yes I totally forgot about a second sub, and if the budget allows, I will for sure do that.

If you look at the thread, what would you tell yourself 10 years ago…

You could get two cheaper subs or one better sub.

5.1.4 okay speakers or 5.1.0 superior speakers.

You always want to spend as much as you want on your speakers and then sit tight, saving up as much money as you can for the next MAJOR upgrade which might set you back $10k. Resist the temptation for incremental upgrades…

I forgot about gaming. For gaming, for sure go with 5.1.4.

 

[Sancus]

A recent research paper found little advantage of 5.1.4 over 5.1 for movies:

Not really, no. That would be jumping to a conclusion the authors themselves warned is not valid.

the authors refrain from interpreting the results to suggest that there is no added benefit of rendering audio to 7.1.4 reproduction systems. Additionally, because a limited set of four stimuli was used in this experiment, the results should be generalized with care.

That said, with this budget I agree 5.1.4 doesn't make sense. You should add heights after you have a solid 5 channel and at least two subs.

If there is some kind of installation difficulty I guess I could see doing ceilings right away, but honestly in ceiling speakers are genuinely terrible. Don't use them unless you absolutely have to for aesthetic reasons. It's far better to mount small bookshelves.

 

[OCA]

Hello,

I am setting up a home theater and looking for Atmos speaker help. This will be in a basement, and the area is 132" X 185" with a 90" ceiling.

I have a Denon AVR-X3800H receiver and budget is around $2,000, but I can be flexible if the bang for the buck warrants it.

Right now I'm kind of leaning towards RSL, a 5.1 combo is $1049 and 4 ceiling speakers at $149 each brings the total to $1645 (possibly less with coupons or sales too) https://rslspeakers.com/products/cg.../?attribute_pa_subwoofer=speedwoofer-10s-mkii

Any thoughts on this or would there be a better option?

Center speaker seems to be a good choice for its dispersion and minimum loads of over 4 ohms throughout the full frequency spectrum but the bookshelves have 3dB lower sensitivity - I couldn't find their minimum loads anywhere but with multi-channel amps driving 8 of these could be problematic. Klipsch speakers are generally easier to drive than others and IMO are more suitable to multichannel set ups than most speakers in the market (I have to admit I never used a Klipsch speaker but that's what I would buy today). Wide dispersion, etc. is not such a big deal in an Atmos set up except for the center and front mains, you will not be able to create central phantom stages the way surround-height speakers are placed anyway.

I will also strongly suggest to stick with just one sub if you plan to use Audyssey for calibration. The way Dynamic EQ handles multiple subs is far from optimal and I regularly got better results with a single sub in my tests. Using MiniDSP can avoid these problems but it introduces delays Denon cannot compensate for with its speaker distance settings.

 

[Sancus]

I will also strongly suggest to stick with just one sub if you plan to use Audyssey for calibration. The way Dynamic EQ handles multiple subs is far from optimal and I regularly got better results with a single sub in my tests. Using MiniDSP can avoid these problems but it introduces delays Denon cannot compensate for with its speaker distance settings.

Or just don't use Dynamic EQ, the feature is kind of a mess anyway with the way it messes up surround channels. There's no reason for 2 subs to produce worse results, though delays may need manual tweaking. In general you often have to do that with Audyssey for optimal sub integration anyway, sadly. If you're using MiniDSPs you should use a Y-splitter anyway and Audyssey should never see more than 1 sub regardless of how many you've got. All Multi-sub tweaking should be done in the miniDSP. There's no issue with delays.

 

[OCA]

There's no issue with delays.

17.5ms is the "maximum" delay Sound United receivers can apply between two most distant speakers (interestingly Dirac Live can exceed this limit in the newer models). MiniDSP internal circuitry alone adds about 20ms. Your bass is ringing all over your mids and highs and I am sure you will easily hear the clarity difference if you ditch minidsp from the equation. I was one of the first to implement MiniDSP in my system (with a 2x4 balanced at the time which was the only model back then) and used it for over a decade but more importantly, I have a database of over a hundred actual measurements from various setups around the World all of which suffered from this.

 

[dustinyo]

That said, with this budget I agree 5.1.4 doesn't make sense. You should add heights after you have a solid 5 channel and at least two subs.

What do you think the minimum budget should be? I do have some wiggle room if needed. Or if it's way out there I could definitely focus on a better 5.1 or 5.2 setup now.

If there is some kind of installation difficulty I guess I could see doing ceilings right away, but honestly in ceiling speakers are genuinely terrible. Don't use them unless you absolutely have to for aesthetic reasons. It's far better to mount small bookshelves.

I actually don't have to do in ceiling speakers for the heights, I could definitely mount some hanging speakers instead. This is in a basement with shorter ceilings though (90"). What would you recommend for this?

 

[OCA]

17.5ms is the "maximum" delay Sound United receivers can apply between two most distant speakers (interestingly Dirac Live can exceed this limit in the newer models). MiniDSP internal circuitry alone adds about 20ms. Your bass is ringing all over your mids and highs and I am sure you will easily hear the clarity difference if you ditch minidsp from the equation. I was one of the first to implement MiniDSP in my system (with a 2x4 balanced at the time which was the only model back then) and used it for over a decade but more importantly, I have a database of over a hundred actual measurements from various setups around the World all of which suffered from this.

Here's a group delay chart from a system I have been dealing with this morning...Check the properly aligned LFE vs where MiniDSP moves it and what can be done at best with Denon/Marantz distance setup:

 

[ernestcarl]

MiniDSP internal circuitry alone adds about 20ms.

It’s only around +3ms — at least for the 2x4HD I use.

 

[OCA]

It’s only around +3ms — at least for the 2x4HD I use.

MiniDSP claims 1.5-2ms. Apparently, it will depend on the platform and the plugin but I have yet to see a single measurement adding less than 20ms to the overall bass system.

 

[ernestcarl]

MiniDSP claims 1.5-2ms. Apparently, it will depend on the platform and the plugin but I have yet to see a single measurement adding less than 20ms to the overall bass system.

Weird as that is not something that I have seen happen. The amount of delay I’ve seen going through the ADAC is pretty close to the official numbers miniDSP says.

 

[OCA]

Weird as that is not something that I have seen happen. The amount of delay I’ve seen going through the ADAC is pretty close to the official numbers miniDSP says.

Are you managing multiple subs with MiniDSP? The extra delay could be related to the filters managing low frequencies as I've only checked Audyssey LFE setups with MiniDSP.

 

[Sancus]

What do you think the minimum budget should be? I do have some wiggle room if needed. Or if it's way out there I could definitely focus on a better 5.1 or 5.2 setup now.

I'd say you basically always want 2 subs, the improvement in bass smoothness is very significant. And I'd budget $1000 for that, it's tough to find subs well under $500 that are any good. I'd look at Stark SW15(on sale), the Monoprice stuff, SVS, maybe Hsu can't recall if they have anything good in that price range. I would look at the Comparison Spreadsheet and post in that thread if you want more advice on subs specifically.

As for speakers, an *ideal* 5-channel to me without going too crazy would be Kef Q650C center, Q350 L/R + Q150 surrounds. That would be $800 + $700 + $500 or $2000. And you could upgrade in future years, switch to R3/R2 Meta for your fronts, and then move the Q350s to surround and the Q150s to height duty. Make sure you figure out how you'd mount them to the ceiling, you can prewire the locations even before you buy the speakers. Q150s have wall brackets so they can be mounted but it may require some ingenuity to translate that to a ceiling mount. Unfortunately most bookshelves don't have purpose-built ceiling brackets/mounts.

I like Kef because they make a legitimate 3-way center, and the center is the single most important speaker in HT. It plays the majority of the audio, much more than the L/R or any other channel. It's not just dialogue, but some music and practically all foley(sound effects) as well. If you are doing a projector setup where you can just use 3 identical speakers for L/C/R behind a screen and you don't care about speaker height, then you don't have to use a purpose-designed center at all.

If all that seems too expensive, I'd consider the JBL Stage speakers and/or Polk instead. See the passive speaker thread to get an idea of what's been reviewed well. I would stay away from speakers that have no review or measurements by Erin or Amir. There's just too many great options to bother with unknowns, IMO.

 

[ernestcarl]

Are you managing multiple subs with MiniDSP? The extra delay could be related to the filters managing low frequencies as I've only checked Audyssey LFE setups with MiniDSP.

Nope. GD should be flat unless one is applying certain filters like a HPF which is commonly done with subs. I tested this sometime ago by centering the mic exactly between my two KH120s using a different USB DAC and thereafter re-inserting the output of one channel into the RCA inputs of the miniDSP. The phase and acoustic time reference offset will indicate how many more milliseconds processing latency the ADAC in the miniDSP adds.