What is even the point of passive crossovers in 2021?

[Bob from Florida]

Passive crossovers are simpler and more cost effective than active with multiple amps. Less to go wrong. However, audio nervosa affects people differently with the original poster perhaps needing the active route.

 

[Sal1950]

Reminds me for some reason of Bob Carver's ads that even a thousand watts wasn't enough to capture scissors snipping.

It has been said "what we need is a perfect 10W amplifier that can put out peaks of 1000W"

Very reminiscent of the things PW Klipsch used to teach.

The serviceability of active speakers is questionable

Something we've been learning a lot about lately with the scarcity of many chips.
Some are no longer going to be manufactured and instead replaced by newer designs.
What happens if you can't replace that DAC in your active?

 

[AM88]

I think the main reasons the market still prefers passives over actives is the fear of the relative difficulty of servicing for parts, which is understandable and the belief that passive crossovers are inherently more “pure” Hifi as they degrade the signal less due to fewer components in the signal path. That part I don’t understand, as technically, actives are far superior.

 

[Bob from Florida]

I think the main reasons the market still prefers passives over actives is the fear of the relative difficulty of servicing for parts, which is understandable and the belief that passive crossovers are inherently more “pure” Hifi as they degrade the signal less due to fewer components in the signal path. That part I don’t understand, as technically, actives are far superior.

The other side of the active coin is without crossover components in place to protect the speaker drivers you run the risk of blowing the drivers when the amp malfunctions. TINSTAAFL

 

[dfuller]

A misconception about passive crossovers is that they are inefficient / lossy.

Well, not for nothing but with a passive filter network there's always some insertion loss. Maybe not a ton, but still some.

The other side of the active coin is without crossover components in place to protect the speaker drivers you run the risk of blowing the drivers when the amp malfunctions. TINSTAAFL

That's why good active designs have limiters and thermal cutouts for driver protection.

 

[izeek]

Given how many speakers Sonos sells, not to mention all the Bluetooth speakers out there, I would say active speakers by volume are doing amazing.

mostly bought by folks who like music but often arent as discerning as we up in here.

 

[Bob from Florida]

Well, not for nothing but with a passive filter network there's always some insertion loss. Maybe not a ton, but still some.

That's why good active designs have limiters and thermal cutouts for driver protection.

Please note I said “when the amp malfunctions”. The built-in protection may be moot in that circumstance. Having a capacitor in series with a tweeter can provide remarkable peace of mind.

 

[lowkeyoperations]

None of my passive crossover speakers have ever become bricked by a firmware update. So there’s that. :/

 

[MakeMineVinyl]

That's why good active designs have limiters and thermal cutouts for driver protection.

A good 2 1/2 watt tube amp is pretty good tweeter protection too.

 

[ta240]

I think it is a combination of many of the reasons mentioned here. Like most things there isn't just one reason.

To group many of the points already made (maybe with a new one or two)

- some people like their sound with a bit of 'color'

- some don't enjoy the super 'clean' or 'accurate' sound that is embraced by active speakers.

- if you have a system you like already, it is difficult to scrap it all and start again with just speakers with built in amps.

- for some people, audio components can be little works of art in their room

- the dreaded hiss

- running speaker wires is easier than running power cords to many locations.

- it can be nice thinking/knowing that an amp you buy, with a bit of upkeep, can still be going decades later.

- some like amps they can repair if needed.

- the generation that uses their phone for a source and doesn't have elaborate systems already is embracing active speakers in the lower end market.

- I don't want to control my speakers with my phone or PC. I want to flip a power switch and spin a volume knob.

- there aren't as many components to sell so reviewers and sellers aren't going to push them

- what upgrades can places sell for active speakers? If a pitchman or a shop sells a regular system there is a lifetime of cables and lotions to be sold for them.

- the youtube infomercial hosts aren't going to gush about active speakers because their fans might revolt

- I really enjoy the sound of my passive speakers, why would I want to scrap that? You may be able to guarantee me the new setup will be more 'accurate' but you can't guarantee me that I will like it better.

- if I just buy active speakers then how can I brag about the synergy that my system has and how that makes it better than other people's systems? Everyone that has the same speakers would have the same sound.

- to switch to active speakers for some would require doing a 180 turn on all that they have believed and said about audio and the importance of each component as well as the magic instilled by each component.

- Passive speakers can't be bricked by a firmware update or 'no longer supported' by the manufacture and stop working because of that. Two of my amps have been working for over a half century and should be working for a long time to come.

- a lot of active speakers look really 'industrial' or 'plastic'

- for some the 'what are you stupid' attitude they get from the active speaker fans just makes them dig in their heels more.

- the Paul McGowans of the world, generally, seem like a more fun type to hang out with (see 'what are you stupid' above) (see also "but often arent as discerning as we up in here." comment in post #46 about those that don't buy good enough active speakers) so a lot of people will continue to listen to them. Very few 'technical' videos about audio are engaging beyond their content.

So, just tackle all of those, and the ones I missed, and active speaker sales should take off.

 

[richard12511]

The reliability thing kinda depends on usage imo. For me, I've only ever bricked passives, and because I often like to listen at reference levels, actives actually seem to be longer lasting. At least that's my experience so far. My Genelecs are basically indestructible. Made of aluminum and impossible to damage with volume, as they actively protect themselves. My Revels are not that durable; made of mdf and if you turn up the volume too much, you risk damaging the drivers So far, I've yet to damage any of my Revels, but that's also because I don't push them as hard as I push my actives(I'm afraid to). I have damaged a couple of Infinity speaker pairs.

 

[valerianf]

Let us just answer a simple question: how to get Dirac with multiple speakers using active crossovers?

In the case of passive crossover the answer is so simple: a Onkyo TX RZ50 and a 5.1 (or more) speaker pack.
Why to chose a complicated and expensive solution?

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Let us just answer a simple question: how to get Dirac with multiple speakers using active crossovers?

In the case of passive crossover the answer is so simple: a Onkyo TX RZ50 and a 5.1 (or more) speaker pack.
Why to chose a complicated and expensive solution?

Easy, minidsp offers an 8 channel solution.

Analong version

DDRC-88A

The DDRC-88A is the big brother of the stereo DDRC platform introduced early 2014. Based on our proven 8x8 DSP board and miniSHARC powerful module, the DDRC-88A combines two successful & proven platforms into a cost effective one rack unit processor for multichannel Dirac Live room correction

www.minidsp.com

Digital version

DDRC-88D

The DDRC-88D is the digital I/O version of the well-known DDRC-88A analog I/O Dirac Live processor. Housed in a compact lightweight chassis, the DDRC-88D provides a full 8 channels of Dirac Live room correction via professional AES/EBU and is the perfect fit for studio, broadcasting, live sound...

www.minidsp.com

 

[Haint]

My admittedly anecdotal suspicion is that the majority of traditional box speakers today are sold for "Home Theater" or media consumption use, not necessarily "Hifi" or dedicated music listening. Even if most of them are not setup properly or put in dedicated "theater rooms", a lot of people are still buying them for the idea and making the best of what they've got. Being virtually no one's wiring up 13+ outlets and running XLR cables in domestic spaces, AVR's and passives still reign supreme almost by necessity. That fact compounded with legacy audiophools chasing and swapping around Amps/DACs for "synergy" is likely what keeps passives on top..at least for now.

 

[valerianf]

Well, Mini DSP DDRC-88A with Dirac live is at $1,049.
But there is no amplification, no pre-amplification, no DAC, no streaming connection....

The Onkyo TX RZ50 is at $1,399 with 9 channels fully equipped.
An for the space took by the whole chain, the Onkyo is by far a winner as it is a all in one.

It is not the same equipment: Mini DSP is rack mounted, perfect for a semi-professional equipment.
On the opposite the Onkyo TX RZ50 can be placed in the living room without shame.

 

[Jdunk54nl]

Well, Mini DSP DDRC-88A with Dirac live is at $1,049.
But there is no amplification, no pre-amplification, no DAC, no streaming connection....

The Onkyo TX RZ50 is at $1,999 with 9 channels fully equipped.
An for the space took by the whole chain, the Onkyo is by far a winner as it is a all in one.

It is not the same equipment: Mini DSP is rack mounted, perfect for a semi-professional equipment.
On the opposite the Onkyo TX RZ50 can be placed in the living room without shame.

You are using active speakers…no need for amps

any avr with pre outs would work as a pre. You can find quite a few early 2010 avrs for a couple hundred bucks with 9+ channel pre outs and a cheap fire stick or something similar for all your streaming.

 

[Haint]

Well, Mini DSP DDRC-88A with Dirac live is at $1,049.
But there is no amplification, no pre-amplification, no DAC, no streaming connection....

The Onkyo TX RZ50 is at $1,999 with 9 channels fully equipped.
An for the space took by the whole chain, the Onkyo is by far a winner as it is a all in one.

It is not the same equipment: Mini DSP is rack mounted, perfect for a semi-professional equipment.
On the opposite the Onkyo TX RZ50 can be placed in the living room without shame.

The RZ50 is $1399 USD while the the NR7100 is only $1099 (assuming you can make do with 9 channels and no preouts). Without the AKM fire or Covid induced semiconductor shortages/shipping disruptions, these models would likely have been street pricing for around $900 and $600 respectively a couple years ago.

 

[Ludcam]

I agree with Bob from FL's point and want to expand a little on it. I build passive crossovers for the same reason I build and use tube amps: because they are simple with few parts and I understand how they work. I can build them and fix them. They are reliable. And I find the sound enjoyable enough if done competently. I'm not saying passive XOs are better sounding than active or even as good sounding. Just like I wouldn't dispute claims about all the sophisticated electronics positively reviewed here with topologies that only an EE can understand and assembled with surface mount parts that I could never solder. I just don't know how they work. I don't have time to learn how they work. I don't have the resources to get into building them. So for me, simple topologies and construction methods are preferred. These are all objective points, i.e., observable facts that correlate with my preference for passive crossovers and other low tech audio gear. Since I enjoy my stereo by building it and by listening to music, these are important considerations for me and some others too. So if the question is: Why are there any commercial applications of passive crossovers when the manufacturer has the scale and capability to produce equally reliable and cost effective active speakers? I would, like the OP, scratch my head. But there are other good reasons for low tech audio that has nothing to do with "subjectivism" "marketing" and "audiophools".

 

[antcollinet]

You are using active speakers…no need for amps

any avr with pre outs would work as a pre. You can find quite a few early 2010 avrs for a couple hundred bucks with 9+ channel pre outs and a cheap fire stick or something similar for all your streaming.

The discussion was about comparing the mini dsp for active crossover. Presumably active speakers would have the crossover/dsp built in - but not Direc Live? But then you have the problem of multi speaker power cabling. Plus comparing new cost of one piece of kit with 10yo second hand kit is not valid.

 

[danadam]

@amirm - How come there is no ordered list option (1,2,3)? Or did I miss it?

It can be done manually in "BB code" mode by using "LIST=1":

[LIST=1]
[*]foo
[*]bar
[/LIST]

1. foo
2. bar