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Build of gr-research X-LS Encore

ctrl

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This is very strange, if you compare the axis frequency responses published by GR-Research (from the official website and the measurements from the video) and add the measurement of ASR, you find that the old GR-Research measurement is still quite consistent with the ASR result, but the new GR-Research measurement is extremely different.
compareGR-Measurement.gif



The tweeter crossover now has about 2dB more sound pressure on axis compared to the bass-midrange driver - in the old version the sound pressure level of the tweeter crossover was even slightly below the bass driver.

@Rick Sykora, has the crossover plan changed in the current version? There is nothing about it on the website.
But the changes are so serious that this can only be explained by a crossover change (or a measurement error, which I exclude with Danny's experience).
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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This is very strange, if you compare the axis frequency responses published by GR-Research (from the official website and the measurements from the video) and add the measurement of ASR, you find that the old GR-Research measurement is still quite consistent with the ASR result, but the new GR-Research measurement is extremely different.
View attachment 78729


The tweeter crossover now has about 2dB more sound pressure on axis compared to the bass-midrange driver - in the old version the sound pressure level of the tweeter crossover was even slightly below the bass driver.

@Rick Sykora, has the crossover plan changed in the current version? There is nothing about it on the website.
But the changes are so serious that this can only be explained by a crossover change (or a measurement error, which I exclude with Danny's experience).

The only crossover difference would be between the base and the premium ones and the differences are pretty small (certainly within tolerances). He tends to use more smoothing than I do. Might account for 2 dB diff...

Did notice that his video glosses over the impedance measure. Found this strange as it is how one would reliably determine that the box tuning matches the design (and between the speaker pair). :confused:
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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Copper caps arrived last night. Premium crossover pic below...

E1AB0584-50FB-442F-A9D5-EA4B80DC91AC.jpeg


Without the tube connectors, using these crossovers about double the price to around $700 for the pair! Here is originals for easy comparison...

D22B7D0B-66A8-4145-B1DC-C3E61903269A.jpeg
 
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jtwrace

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Without the tube connectors, using these crossovers about double the price to $700 for the pair!
And the measured performance will be....no betta! However, the measured GR bank account performance will be....mo betta!
 

ctrl

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Without the tube connectors, using these crossovers about double the price to around $700 for the pair! Here is originals for easy comparison...
And the measured performance will be....no betta! However, the measured GR bank account performance will be....mo betta!

It's actually, if I interpret the images correctly, even worse...

At least this seems to be the case after the pictures of @Rick Sykora . If I recognize it correctly, capacitors in the high-frequency branch change their values.
@Rick Sykora can you check if the capacitance and resistor values between the "normal" crossover and "premium" are really identical (tweeter branch)?

This would explain the drastically different frequency responses (see post#181 on this) and impedance measurements published by Danny for the encore speaker with probably once with normal crossover (measurement 2007) and premium crossover (measurement 2020):
compareGR-Measurement_Imp.gif
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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It's actually, if I interpret the images correctly, even worse...

At least this seems to be the case after the pictures of @Rick Sykora . If I recognize it correctly, capacitors in the high-frequency branch change their values.
@Rick Sykora can you check if the capacitance and resistor values between the "normal" crossover and "premium" are really identical (tweeter branch)?

This would explain the drastically different frequency responses (see post#181 on this) and impedance measurements published by Danny for the encore speaker with probably once with normal crossover (measurement 2007) and premium crossover (measurement 2020)...

While not as much as it appears, upon closer examination, there are changes to the tweeter crossover values. The first 2 caps (lower part of pic), change from edit , cap values removed by request . The other change is the following resistor (on right side of pic) drops from 6.8 to 6 ohms.
 
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ctrl

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While not as much as it appears, upon closer examination, there are changes to the tweeter crossover values. The first 2 caps (lower part of pic), change from 9.2 to 8.1 uF. The other change is the following resistor (on right side of pic) drops from 6.8 to 6 ohms.

To estimate the effects of the changes, one would have to simulate the complete high-frequency crossover branch.
On the other hand, we have the measurements from Danny himself, once from his website and from the video @maty linked to.

The differences shown there are enormous. Here I have superimposed the axis frequency responses for the 2007 and 2020 measurements (probably the normal crossover and the premium crossover) - the differences below 1kHz could be caused by room modes:

1597859653826.png


I'm tuning a new loudspeaker at the moment and there I'm struggling with a few tenths of a dB change in sound pressure during optimization - which is clearly audible. If these measurements are correct, then the Encore with the premium crossover represents a new loudspeaker.

The premium crossover has over one dB more sound pressure in the 3-10kHz range - these are worlds apart!

1597860108166.png


Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with the premium crossover being "better" tuned than the "normal" version, just don't claim that the better details in the music you hear are produced by the expensive capacitors and resistors.
 
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Rick Sykora

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To estimate the effects of the changes, one would have to simulate the complete high-frequency crossover branch.
On the other hand, we have the measurements from Danny himself, once from his website and from the video @maty linked to.

The differences shown there are enormous. Here I have superimposed the axis frequency responses for the 2007 and 2020 measurements (probably the normal crossover and the premium crossover) - the differences below 1kHz could be caused by room modes:

View attachment 78899

I'm tuning a new loudspeaker at the moment and there I'm struggling with a few tenths of a dB change in sound pressure during optimization - which is clearly audible. If these measurements are correct, then the Encore with the premium crossover represents a new loudspeaker.

The premium crossover has over one dB more sound pressure in the 3-10kHz range - these are worlds apart!

View attachment 78900

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with the premium crossover being "better" tuned than the "normal" version, just don't claim that the better details in the music you hear are produced by the expensive capacitors and resistors.

Seems like something only Danny can answer. ;)
 
D

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Those two woofer inductors are different as well. Maybe they are the same value, but they're certainly wound differently.

Dave.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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Those two woofer inductors are different as well. Maybe they are the same value, but they're certainly wound differently.

Dave.

Amir has the speaker with that inductor. Comparing the ones I have, they do appear different. I have not done a functional test as yet, but will before I ship. My LCR meter died, but should have a new one soon. Will let you know!
 
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Rick Sykora

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Amir has the speaker with that inductor. Comparing the ones I have, they do appear different. I have not done a functional test as yet, but will before I ship. My LCR meter died, but should have a new one soon. Will let you know!

Checked the value of the inductor and it appears correct.

Also checked with Danny and have not heard back as yet. Found Danny's reply caught in spam filters. He confirms the inductor is the correct value.
 
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Rick Sykora

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To estimate the effects of the changes, one would have to simulate the complete high-frequency crossover branch.
On the other hand, we have the measurements from Danny himself, once from his website and from the video @maty linked to.

The differences shown there are enormous. Here I have superimposed the axis frequency responses for the 2007 and 2020 measurements (probably the normal crossover and the premium crossover) - the differences below 1kHz could be caused by room modes:

View attachment 78899

I'm tuning a new loudspeaker at the moment and there I'm struggling with a few tenths of a dB change in sound pressure during optimization - which is clearly audible. If these measurements are correct, then the Encore with the premium crossover represents a new loudspeaker.

The premium crossover has over one dB more sound pressure in the 3-10kHz range - these are worlds apart!

View attachment 78900

Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problem with the premium crossover being "better" tuned than the "normal" version, just don't claim that the better details in the music you hear are produced by the expensive capacitors and resistors.

Danny replied that the differences are likely due to tweeter variations and not the crossover differences. The crossover values were changed to due to a component availability issue and should have "almost identical response".
 
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jtwrace

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Danny replied that the differences are likely due to tweeter variations and not the crossover differences. The crossover values were changed to due to a component availability issue.
Total train wreck
 

Octalman

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3db difference is the accepted minimum normal human hearing can detect for speech and music. 1dB difference is minimum detectable using pure sine tones under tightly controlled laboratory testing. You know, real science. "Enormous" and "worlds apart"???
 

ctrl

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3db difference is the accepted minimum normal human hearing can detect for speech and music. 1dB difference is minimum detectable using pure sine tones under tightly controlled laboratory testing. You know, real science. "Enormous" and "worlds apart"???
Let's go over the whole thing again. Due to the changes of the components in the high frequency crossover branch the sound pressure increases in the range 3-10kHz by sometimes more than 1 dB - sound pressure of the woofer doesn't change.

This changes the sound character/tonality/tone colour (call it whatever you like) of the loudspeaker. From 2-3kHz the sound pressure curve tilts upwards compared to the old crossover version.
So you perceive not so much a change in sound pressure, as you suggest, but a tonal change of the loudspeaker. And this can be perceived much easier.

In addition, a few perception thresholds, not from me, but from real scientists.

Source: Sound Reproduction, Toole
The simplest deviation from flat is probably a spectral tilt. There is some evidence that we can detect slopes of about 0.1dB/octave, which translates into a 1 dB tilt from 20 Hz to 20 kHz—not much.

Or you can understand the crossover change as the introduction of a resonance/interference in the frequency range 3-12kHz with small Q (<1) compared to the original crossover and see what the threshold is there.:

1598324079020.png

Source: Sound Reproduction, Toole
 

Octalman

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Appreciate your efforts and delving into small details. Wrestling with squaring your work, Toole, Olive, and others in the debate between measurements and perception (listening results). The work of Toole and Olive claim tiny differences to be audible in pink noise. You attribute audible sound character/tonality/tone colour to the slope of a curve between 2-3 kHz. Yet claims of audible differences between capacitors is considered hogwash?

Understand the 2007 and 2020 GR Research response curves are readily available. Wonder what differences could exist in any number of factors over a 13 year span? Test location, equipment, calibration, and procedure just for starters. How do we really understand potential issues in a speaker without an accurate understanding of factors different between 2007 and 2020?
 
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Rick Sykora

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Appreciate your efforts and delving into small details. Wrestling with squaring your work, Toole, Olive, and others in the debate between measurements and perception (listening results). The work of Toole and Olive claim tiny differences to be audible in pink noise. You attribute audible sound character/tonality/tone colour to the slope of a curve between 2-3 kHz. Yet claims of audible differences between capacitors is considered hogwash?

Understand the 2007 and 2020 GR Research response curves are readily available. Wonder what differences could exist in any number of factors over a 13 year span? Test location, equipment, calibration, and procedure just for starters. How do we really understand potential issues in a speaker without an accurate understanding of factors different between 2007 and 2020?

Hi and welcome to ASR!

You have a point about measuring conditions over a 13 year span, but @ctrl is working with the data available to him at the time. Please also note that Danny has admitted a change to the crossover (see post #193) between 2007 and 2013. While there are questions of audibility, it does appear to have changed the frequency response measurably. Unfortunately, since this is a more significant change than simply upgrading the caps and resistors, it complicates the comparison. The other point that @ctrl noted was that my 2020 measurement was very much like Danny's 2007 one (more so than his latest 2020 one). Considering the significant differences between my test setup and Danny's, this is even more noteworthy.

Here are the graphs supplied by Danny. Here is the 2007 one:

X-LS response on-axis response.jpg

and the 2020 version:

on axis response - xls encore.jpg

While comparable, they are clearly not the same. Danny attributes this to driver differences, but too many things have changed and it is speculative to judge. Amir will have a speaker with known drivers and both a basic crossover and a upgraded one to do a more controlled comparison. I am putting the final touches on the updated crossover today and (after some validation testing) will be shipping it to Amir shortly.
 
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Octalman

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It will be interesting to see Amir's test results. Thanks for your efforts, Rick S. Wish Amir would perform a listening test first (for all speakers reviewed), with two speakers as that is the configuration used to listen to music.
 
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Rick Sykora

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As I wrap up the second speaker, I feel obliged to mention what a big PITA the supplied solid wire is to use. If I were not building to the designer's spec., would readily have substituted stranded wire. As most will use more than a few feet of stranded wire to connect the speakers to an amplifier, there is no practical advantage to a few inches of solid wire inside the box. More often, there are disadvantages as more strain is put on almost every connection, more strain relief to compensate and more possibility that the hard jacket vibrates against other internal parts. It has made this build more work and less enjoyable than it could otherwise be. :mad:

I will applaud Danny for adding value to DIY by sharing his knowledge and experience with others. Though there are some cases of more marginal value and (IMO) use of solid wire is one of them!
 

ctrl

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Well, better late than never ;)
You attribute audible sound character/tonality/tone colour to the slope of a curve between 2-3 kHz. Yet claims of audible differences between capacitors is considered hogwash?
There's a lot going on here.

Due to the changes in the crossover for the tweeter, the frequency response curve starts to rise in the 2-3kHz range and remains raised up to 10kHz - provided Danny's measurements are reliable, which I have already written in the previous posts.

These changes in the frequency response curves have caused me to ask if there are any changes in the premium crossover component values. This was confirmed by @Rick Sykora.

The premium-crossover was recommended to @Rick Sykora because it would make the speaker sound much more transparent, supposedly because of the better and more expensive crossover components.

If the changes to the premium crossover really do what it says they will, then the speaker will definitely sound significantly different, brighter with more detail - how easily tonal changes are perceived, I tried to show in the previous post***.

In the case of @Rick Sykora's DIY loudspeakers, however, the tonal change/improvement(?) is not caused by "better" component quality, but simply by changing the crossover. But it should actually be "proven" that the component quality causes audible differences - with exactly the same component values.

Here we come full circle to the capacitor tests.
When people claim to notice a significant improvement in high frequency reproduction after replacing capacitors (usually one or two serial capacitors in the high frequency branch of the crossover), the exact capacitance values of the old and new capacitors are never given.

It is then said that the capacitance values before and after the exchange were identical, for example 4.7µF. The tolerances of the capacitor values are not taken into account. With cheap capacitors this can be +-10%, with better +-5% and with the best +-2%.
These tolerances are sufficient to cause audible tonal changes in the speakers.
In the first part of my capacitor experiments I show that with exactly identical capacitance values there are no significant measurable differences (FR, multiton distortion, impluse response, CSD) at all between a "normal" and a high-end capacitor.
I also show that even small differences in capacitor values (which occur when capacitors are replaced without prior selection regarding the old value, because of the tolerances) cause measurable changes in the frequency response.

In the third part I show that in a hearing test the claim that there are practically no measurable differences, but clearly audible differences, between a simple crossover version and the premium crossover are simply not true.
Which again shows how important it is that really identical component values (measured and selected) are used in such comparisons.

Therefore @Rick Sykora's comparison was doomed to fail from the beginning (with a lot of luck the deviations could have been minimal, but we would never have known).
With the changed component values in the premium crossover, two speakers with different crossover tunings are now compared.


*** (Just to be clear: The audibility of the shown low-Q resonances is of course not directly comparable to a modified Encore crossover, it should only illustrate that tonal changes can be perceived well below the 3dB you mentioned. My own experiences with loudspeaker development, crossover tuning and the audibility of tonal changes would, rightly, be dismissed as anecdotal - hence the various examples).
 
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