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Build of gr-research X-LS Encore

Ashley Salmond

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Only about 40 years experience, NTK. The referenced paper and calculations presented have no connection to the vibration modes inside a loudspeaker. One thing you did get right is bend radius. Must be a very small bend radius repeatedly worked at least +/- 30 degrees to fracture a solid wire. There is no vibration mode of any frequency inside a speaker enclosure that can do that.

If a solid core wire, or any wire, is against a port tube and buzzes that is a port tube issue. Poor construction practice is a different issue.

The discussion of wire with regard to personal preference or ease of installation is a valid concern. Stranded wire is easier for the DIY builder. Using solid core wire does require more care. Tradeoff's of that nature are real world considerations. Vibration inside a speaker fracturing a solid core wire is not a real world consideration.
Thank you Gentlemen that was insightful understanding of core wire.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Wire fracture is an interesting albeit unlikely occurrence...

The more likely problem is the lack of flexibility combined with a hard jacket for the supplied wire. Any place it contacts another hard surface (port, driver enclosure, brace, etc.) is a potential for it to buzz or rattle. Simply the supplied wire introduces more potential problems without providing improved sound quality. If the builder is not careful, the potential for real audible anomalies is a more likely unfortunate outcome.
 

77SunsetStrip

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For any type wire to buzz or rattle, the natural resonant frequency must be excited. Highly unlikely, at normal listening levels. Possible, still unlikely, at ear splitting levels. The DIY builder that does not follow reasonable care can experience multiple problems. Carelessness does not justify indictment of solid core wire or any other component.

The DIY builder should be far more concerned about wire quality. Going with the least expensive wire risks ending up with poor quality copper or copper flash coated aluminum. Some find the least expensive route acceptable. Others invest more time and money to be confident there are no weak links in the chain. To each, his own.
 
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Rick Sykora

Rick Sykora

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For any type wire to buzz or rattle, the natural resonant frequency must be excited. Highly unlikely, at normal listening levels. Possible, still unlikely, at ear splitting levels. The DIY builder that does not follow reasonable care can experience multiple problems. Carelessness does not justify indictment of solid core wire or any other component.

The DIY builder should be far more concerned about wire quality. Going with the least expensive wire risks ending up with poor quality copper or copper flash coated aluminum. Some find the least expensive route acceptable. Others invest more time and money to be confident there are no weak links in the chain. To each, his own.

I have seen some pretty high pressure levels coming out of subwoofers that I have measured...

So tell me what it might take to get a hard wire wire to buzz (or not) if it is rubbing against the port tube? Maybe it does not apply to a bookshelf speaker, but might to a subwoofer?

Am a bit skeptical about where the cutoff point might be, but can construct a test unless you can show it is a waste of time. Please elaborate as perhaps my build practices have been unjustified? :)
 
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77SunsetStrip

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Have you heard a buzz or rattle that you tracked down to a wire against a port tube? If a wire is stretched tightly in contact with a port tube, the risk of a problem increases. Highly doubt your construction practice would include that scenario. Slack wire in free air will not cause a problem. Keeping wire away from any hard surface is a simple enough measure to avoid an unlikely problem.

Feel free to construct and experiment proving that wire should not contact a port tube.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Have you heard a buzz or rattle that you tracked down to a wire against a port tube? If a wire is stretched tightly in contact with a port tube, the risk of a problem increases. Highly doubt your construction practice would include that scenario. Slack wire in free air will not cause a problem. Keeping wire away from any hard surface is a simple enough measure to avoid an unlikely problem.

Feel free to construct and experiment proving that wire should not contact a port tube.

I am not an expert in mechanical engineering, but if you are, then no need for an experiment. You are stating a position as fact, but offering no study or evidence to support. So, no offense, but not sure why I should believe you (or you I) without some proof.

This is a science-based forum, but my time is not free. So, while am willing to construct a test, was hoping you would provide evidence of your credentials and/or studies that support your claim.
 

77SunsetStrip

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Solid wire fracture due to vibration inside a speaker enclosure kicked off this exchange. There was no applicable science presented to support that pure speculation and myth. Then the subject changed to wire buzzing or rattling if in contact with a port tube. There was no real world incident or experiment presented to support that situation. Common sense fabrication is all that is necessary to ensure wire, any type wire, does not contact a port tube. Scientific proof is not required when application of common sense provides the answer.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Solid wire fracture due to vibration inside a speaker enclosure kicked off this exchange. There was no applicable science presented to support that pure speculation and myth. Then the subject changed to wire buzzing or rattling if in contact with a port tube. There was no real world incident or experiment presented to support that situation. Common sense fabrication is all that is necessary to ensure wire, any type wire, does not contact a port tube. Scientific proof is not required when application of common sense provides the answer.

Ok, looks like we concur that avoiding wire contact with vibrating parts is good practice. The only time I have experienced a buzz is in an automotive situation and there are other sources of vibration there. So hardly conclusive. I can say that many of the better speakers I have salvaged or have seen torn down have foam wrapping around the wiring. IME (30 years in advanced automation), manufacturers do not add something without reason as it adds cost.

If you play a string instrument, you know even a loose (wire) string makes sound. To get bass, the wire strings are thicker than the higher frequency ones. If you lay a wire string across a vibrating part (like a port), it will make sound. it may be a buzz or rattle, but it is added noise that is not desirable in a high fidelity speaker. That said, if am building a speaker, I will try to ensure that anywhere a wire might contact a hard surface is covered in some way. I may cover the part rather than the wire, but it is not worth my time to tear open a speaker to fix a wire noise.

For this specific speaker, the strong recommendation is to cover the interior speaker panels with foam damping material. There is a brace that connects the side panels and those solid wires need to run right by it. On the way to the tweeter, the port is very close to the back of the tweeter. If I spent extra to reduce vibrations on all the interior panels, I would not hesitate to spend a bit more to avoid potential wire vibrations.

So, along with not bending as readily, solid core wire with a hard jacket is just the opposite of what you want to avoid potential extraneous vibrations. High quality stranded wire with a softer jacket is simply a more reasonable use case.
 
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77SunsetStrip

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We are in agreement regarding construction practices to avoid problems. Musical instrument string material and gauge are specific for their application to produce a desired sound. Like a musical instrument string, you can stretch a piece of electrical wire between two fixed points, pluck it, and make a sound. Not the intended application. Let either come in contact with a vibrating surface and a problem can occur. No disagreement there.

Have seen similar automotive applications of foam or the black gooey stuff in automotive applications. There are additional concerns in that environment such as wire chaffing and rattles when audio is not in use. Unfortunately, have seen wire routed around sharp metal edges - bad practice.

Have worked on speakers with stranded wire either very poor quality copper or flash coated aluminum that were very stiff. Wire strands were easily broken with very little flexing. Recently worked on a pair of name brand multi-thousand $ speakers with stranded wire. Appeared to be good quality copper strands covered by a very stiff insulation. The wire was carefully routed and good damping material installed. The manufacturer did a good job to avoid problems. Only a sample of one, but that wire was every bit as stiff as single conductor.

Regarding potential issues with the XLS-Encore, appreciate your pointing those out. Potential buyers can choose to use good quality stranded wire, route carefully, and/or install the recommended damping material. After all, they are pretty basic entry level DIY speakers that can satisfy many.
 

MrPeabody

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Solid wire fracture due to vibration inside a speaker enclosure kicked off this exchange. There was no applicable science presented to support that pure speculation and myth. Then the subject changed to wire buzzing or rattling if in contact with a port tube. There was no real world incident or experiment presented to support that situation. Common sense fabrication is all that is necessary to ensure wire, any type wire, does not contact a port tube. Scientific proof is not required when application of common sense provides the answer.

What actually started this discussion was when Rick S. mentioned that he was surprised to find solid wiring inside the speaker kit. My assumption was that he meant what I call single-strand wiring, which is preferred for use in home wiring for the sole reason that it costs less to manufacture. Why not apply your "common sense" to the question that is patently obvious here: whether there is any advantage of using solid-core wire instead of flexible multi-strand wiring inside of a speaker? GR-Research touts this as though there is some inherent advantage to it. One thing that Rick S. mentioned was the valid point about stress on the connection points. Absent any other reason to strongly prefer one type over the other, this consideration alone is reason enough to prefer multi-stranded wiring. This is where "common sense" genuinely comes into play in this debate, and it is truly a "no-brainer". Yet, you have turned the thing on its head by choosing to overlook the patently obvious question of what advantage there could possibly for using solid core wire inside a speaker, and by choosing instead to criticize the lack of scientific proof with respect to the notions of fracturing and vibration. So what? Why does it even matter if these two concerns are mostly imaginary, when common sense tells you that the stiffer the wire, the greater the likelihood of stress-related damage at the connection points?

When I assemble a speaker, I want for there to be the least possible amount of stress at the point where the wire connects to the tabs or binding posts on the driver. The ideal is for there to be no stress at all at this vulnerable connection point. The way to meet this goal is obvious. Anyone who applies common sense to the matter will immediately ask what genuine advantage there could possibly be for using solid-core wire inside a speaker. Why are you not raising objections to the implied claim that it is better to use solid core wire inside a speaker? Why are you not directing your objections at this central, implied claim, instead of raising objections to some of the reasons that others have given for not using solid core wire? Does it not seem truthful to you that the stiffer the wire, the greater the likelihood of damage at the connection points? You have dismissed this obvious, common sense perspective, by saying that anyone who is careful in assembly will avoid such damage. This is a silly argument, which runs counter to common sense, because no matter how careful someone is, solid core wire puts greater stress at the vulnerable connection points and increases the likelihood of damage. You have dismissed this perfectly sensible perspective and you have not given a single good reason for why anyone would want to use sold core wire inside a speaker.
 

77SunsetStrip

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Stress on a connection point is not an issue exclusive to single strand wire. Poor assembly practice is the real enemy, not the type of wire. Any type of wire that is under tension between two connection points will apply stress to the connection points. Allow slack between the connection points. good practice, and little to worry about. Crimp connections, properly applied, are superior mechanically and electrically. Have not seen wires crimped directly to speaker terminals in wide use. That leaves solder or some type of push on mechanical connection.

If solder is used with stranded wire, the solder should flow completely in and around the strands. That creates a solid, inflexible attachment point. Same inflexible attachment when soldering solid core wire. So that attachment method and wire type result in the same mechanical connection.

Simple push on terminals are widely used to connect wire to speaker terminals. The force required to apply those push on terminals definitely applies stress.

Wire routing can cause stress with either type wire. Already said more care is required with solid core and may not be for all DIY'ers.

As far as trying to pick a fight about GR Research, not interested. And FYI, ran a custom wiring harness shop for 20+ years, so a long winded post saying nothing of substance does not impress.
 
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All I can say is that it was very intense trying to twist and solder, it was a test of finger strength and patience and some cursing. :):):) I have not had any buzzing or fatigue at the solder joints. As said you just need to make sure you have some slack.
But how did Amir get on with the upgraded pair from Danny. I can say that the Elac Unifi Ubi 52 have not impressed me and I am selling them and keeping the Encores.
 
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Very happy with the basic Encores. I did beef up the bracing and added adhesive floor tile and sound damping foam to the walls. Poly fill and tube connectors. I didn't buy the no res or cross over upgrades. A/v2 is which model?
I thought I'd try the Elac Uni UBi52 to see if DIY was all that. All I can say is the Elac's will be going soon. They give a marginal sound stage advantage in my difficult room and they are freaky good at near field but no replacement for displacement and the 3 way did not bring any more clarity to vocals and instruments over the 2 way Encores. The only thing I may do is make new boxes with downward or front firing ports as you need a foot from the back wall when rear ported or you will need to plug the ports.

So have fun with your build and enjoy.
 

Steve Dallas

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A few concerns:

1. Don't ever wear shorts while soldering. I say that from experience, living in hot place like he does and having molten solder drop on my legs. Ouch!

2. Why is he using solid wires in high vibration environment? On boats where your life depends on electronics working, solid wires are not used because they can fatigue and cause breakage. The solid wires will also sing and resonate with the driver. Not that I worry about that but if folks are concerned with type of caps, speaker terminals and such, they best worry about this too!

3. If solder causes oxidation on that wire, then he should use a different wire. Tin-coated stranded wire is again the choice in harsh (humid) environment of boats. No need for heatshrink but if one lives in a humid location, then heatshrink with epoxy should be used. Then again the rest of the connections between parts are going to oxidize just as well.

4. Boy does he put a lot of strain on solid wires coming out of capacitors and resistors as he twists them. Bend these back and forth one too many times and the wire breaks. This is another reason to use stranded wire and wrap that around the solid wire of the components. No stress then.

5. Soldering a bunch of wires coming together will require a soldering iron with high thermal mass like the old school one he is using. Even he seems to struggle with it at times. A standard pencil solder iron may be very difficult to use for such junctions as the wires act like heat sinks and pull away the heat, causing the solder to not want to melt.

Outside of the above, tutorials like this are very helpful and Danny does a good job on them.

Speaking as someone who has built some 500 tube guitar amplifiers by hand, that was one of the most painful things I have ever watched. Everything about it is wrong or just silly.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Ok, the test speaker is almost back together and ready to ship. The port tube is press fit, so decided to glue it in place.

After reviewing the test results, I found indication that the foam/Acousta-Stuf combo might be slightly better, so checked with the designer and he preferred too. So the damping is now more comparable to the better speakers I have built.

This one will get a new box too. Often this is fancier work than the cabinet construction, but worth it to make sure it has the best possible chance to get to Amir intact. :)

Saw a recent post by Danny on another forum. He appears to have forgotten my email with him and the fact that his speaker (as tested by Amir) had damping material in accordance with his advice (see above). Most of his flock seems to keep repeating the same misinformation, so felt I would give them a reminder.

Note, despite assurances that he would correct, there is no option to add damping material to the kit when ordering. :facepalm:
 

Ashley Salmond

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Saw a recent post by Danny on another forum. He appears to have forgotten my email with him and the fact that his speaker (as tested by Amir) had damping material in accordance with his advice (see above). Most of his flock seems to keep repeating the same misinformation, so felt I would give them a reminder.

Note, despite assurances that he would correct, there is no option to add damping material to the kit when ordering. :facepalm:hi Rick
 

Ashley Salmond

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Hi Rick. I think that the testing of the xls encore in a basic build open a great opportunity compare and test the premium build. It would settle arguments with high end crossover components , edge diffraction and in your case resonance. I have used the no Rez and found some of the adhesive not working well but used silicone which was excellent. If Amir seemed happy with the XLS after the tweak s , so to see the same result s after the high end build . May be Danny from GR Research may ablige as a promotion of his product.
 
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Rick Sykora

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Hi Rick. I think that the testing of the xls encore in a basic build open a great opportunity compare and test the premium build. It would settle arguments with high end crossover components , edge diffraction and in your case resonance. I have used the no Rez and found some of the adhesive not working well but used silicone which was excellent. If Amir seemed happy with the XLS after the tweak s , so to see the same result inters after the high end build . May be Danny from GR Research may ablige as a promotion of his product.

Might be interesting but neither party seems very interested in collaborating much these days. Recently Amir requested a GR sample and Danny turned him away. Many of the more technical questions have pretty settled answers anyway. Others would require double-blind testing and it just seems low ROI rn.
 
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se-riously

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Yes, they appear to be the same tweeter that is offered by GR Research. I didn't buy the tweeters, but bought the complete speakers, locally. Aside from the crossover work with the Skiing Ninja crossovers, I'm not sure what else was done, but possibly a previous owner opted for the updated tweeter over the standard offering from AV123.

View attachment 89682

Those tweeters were a special offering from Skiing Ninja at one time. Your speakers started off as a X-SLS classic, and when the Encore version came out with the revised crossover and tweeter, Skiing Ninja sold an upgrade that included both the new crossover and the Encore tweeter with a modified outer ring that would drop directly in the classic's cabinet.
 
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