Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Skylarlove1999]

Of course. My tests are performed with a machine using identical setup. The same setup is used across literally hundreds of products and has passed scrutiny from many manufactures. I have proven my transparency across hundreds of reviews.

Not saying mistakes can't happen. They could as these products are complex. So I await the manufacturer to show me. But you screaming with no knowledge doesn't amount to any criticism of the results, let alone bias.

The equipment used for testing is state-of-the-art as well. Most manufacturers sadly don't have the same due to high cost ($28,000). But I am here to help them if they need it. To wit, if Denon wants to send me to test gear in private, I am happy to do so.

Why not test them in private, reach out to them before trashing a product publicly, at least allow them the opportunity to make it better before trashing it. What do you get out of tearing a product apart before they have had the opportunity to address it? Let me guess you will say you are protecting the consumer. What product can be purchased with the channels that the 4700 supports with all its features for its price?

 

[Angsty]

Blasphemy LOL. Measurements are how all these people who never created a product in their life justify their importance and existence. Those who create do. Those who can't measure other people's creations.

Look, you come here with little evidence. You set up shop to cast aspersions. You demonstrate no expertise.

Nobody is intimidated by you. Nobody here is going to think you’re smart. Whatever point you are trying to make will be lost in your ham-handed delivery.

Just go back under your bridge and entertain yourself with whatever you were doing last night. Nobody here really cares about ill-informed opinions.

 

[Spocko]

What you stated is libel. You know it . I know it. You just thought you would never get called on it. Thanks for being silly enough to post it on your own site though. Let's say your libelous statement causes injury to Denon's reputation and negatively impacts their fiscal growth. You would be held liable. Think about it. I know you aren't a lawyer. If you have one you might want to run your comments by him . Just saying. LOL.

No, it is not libelous if the statement is in fact true. Amir said: "the measured performance of their products are all over the place."
Proof that the measured performance of their products are indeed all over the place as follows (3600H as an example of such a product):

1. Authorized Dealer sites like Crutchfield https://bit.ly/2Yhdkp6 and Accessories4Less https://bit.ly/2NdiZ9p have specifications showing measured performance as 105 watts, 0.08% THD through 4 ohms; this is vastly different than what is published on Denon's own product site https://bit.ly/3hJMVb4 and Audioholics press release https://bit.ly/2zLKHqA which both state 105 watts, 0.08 THD on 8 ohms.
2. But wait, there's more: on Amazon's 3600H product page, where you can download the product sheet https://bit.ly/2NeoX9X , there's talk of 0.08% THD (assuming this means Total Harmonic Distortion), and this appears to be the lowest (best?) value available, and yet, when you go to Denon's own online manual https://bit.ly/3hUuj8C we see two separate measurements representing the lowest distortion, specifically, there is "0.08% T.H.D." and then there's something just labeled as "Distortion 0.008 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (Direct mode)". Interesting, no other dealer site or product site for the 3600H indicates 0.008% for any measured Distortion, but here it is in Denon's official online manual.

So what is the consumer to think? First, is the measured distortion through 8 or 4 ohms? And is it 0.008% or 0.08%? And is there a difference between T.H.D. and just plain old "Distortion"?

COME ON, you have to admit that this is clearly evidence of measured performance being "all over the place" and requiring a third party to clear things up! This took me less than 15 minutes on Google to put together.

 

[carlob]

See what you have done, now it's 2am here and I can't go to sleep

 

[Spocko]

See what you have done, now it's 2am here and I can't go to sleep

It's only 5PM in California, so get ready for a long night, right?

 

[carlob]

It's only 5PM in California, so get ready for a long night, right?

I'm lucky that @Thomas savage is more or less in my same timezone so maybe tomorrow morning I'll have a chance to read the thread before cleanup

 

[amirm]

Let me guess you will say you are protecting the consumer.

Novel concept, eh?

But really, so little information is provided to consumers to make an informed choice about their audio purchases. There is not even one graph provided on anything! Just a few vague numbers with no specifications on how they were acquired.

My goal is to change that. Manufacturers could put me out of business overnight if they did the same testing.

I grew up in an era of electronic audio design where such graphs and detailed specs were commonplace. Over time, the logo list has replaced them. It is so bad that sometimes I go to the "specification page" and all I find are the dimensions of the audio product! We have let ourselves go. And companies have followed the same by not setting standards for performance and meeting and exceeding them.

Mind you, I have reached out to companies but rarely if ever they answer. Here is what I sent to Pioneer/Onkyo after I tested their AVR last year: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-pioneer-vsx-lx504-avr.8862/

I did not hear a thing.

This is not good of course. These companies need to take efforts like ours seriously. Their customers care more about performance than they think. They are their early adopters and mean a lot. At least I think they do.

 

[LTig]

No, it is not libelous if the statement is in fact true. Amir said: "the measured performance of their products are all over the place."
Proof that the measured performance of their products are indeed all over the place as follows (3600H as an example of such a product):

1. Authorized Dealer sites like Crutchfield https://bit.ly/2Yhdkp6 and Accessories4Less https://bit.ly/2NdiZ9p have specifications showing measured performance as 105 watts, 0.08% THD through 4 ohms; this is vastly different than what is published on Denon's own product site https://bit.ly/3hJMVb4 and Audioholics press release https://bit.ly/2zLKHqA which both state 105 watts, 0.08 THD on 8 ohms.
2. But wait, there's more: on Amazon's 3600H product page, where you can download the product sheet https://bit.ly/2NeoX9X , there's talk of 0.08% THD (assuming this means Total Harmonic Distortion), and this appears to be the lowest (best?) value available, and yet, when you go to Denon's own online manual https://bit.ly/3hUuj8C we see two separate measurements representing the lowest distortion, specifically, there is "0.08% T.H.D." and then there's something just labeled as "Distortion 0.008 % (20 Hz – 20 kHz) (Direct mode)". Interesting, no other dealer site or product site for the 3600H indicates 0.008% for any measured Distortion, but here it is in Denon's official online manual.

So what is the consumer to think? First, is the measured distortion through 8 or 4 ohms? And is it 0.008% or 0.08%? And is there a difference between T.H.D. and just plain old "Distortion"?

COME ON, you have to admit that this is clearly evidence of measured performance being "all over the place" and requiring a third party to clear things up! This took me less than 15 minutes on Google to put together.

Well, if even the specs are all over the place (what you showed nicely) one should expect that the measurements are all over the place too.

Jokes aside, but @amirm is right:

• Some measurements are good or very good: power, THD via SPDIF and Analog in
• Some are (sadly typical for AVRs) bad: noise, THD via HDMI
• Some are just horrible: multi tone via HDMI.

Clearly we see that HDMI is the bottle neck which is real pity since this is what an AVR is made for. This alone justifies a beheaded panther.

 

[spacevector]

Is it more significant that the headless panther also has his back turned?

Jeez - I didn't notice that. Some solid symbolism in amirm's panther placement.

 

[amirm]

What product can be purchased with the channels that the 4700 supports with all its features for its price?

Denon's own AVR-X3600H: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...ds/denon-avr-x3600h-av-receiver-review.12676/

 

[amirm]

Is it more significant that the headless panther also has his back turned?

Ah, finally someone got that! I was losing hope in you all....

 

[SimpleTheater]

At the end of the day I think that once Emotiva gets Dirac sorted it might be the best option out there. I was hoping to see a new Anthem product but it seems is not going to happen.

That’s still supposed to happen? I’d given up hope.

 

[Sal1950]

Jeez - I didn't notice that. Some solid symbolism in amirm's panther placement.

Now you know they are not feature matched. Now your just being lazy.

Can't you see what a fool your making of yourself here? You continue to post untrue statements and then duck when your called out.
Who are you? Who do you work for? What are your relationships in the audio industry? What are your credentials in electronics, what degrees do you hold? Do you dare to answer any of these questions in a straightforward manner and not do a sideways dance?

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Novel concept, eh?

But really, so little information is provided to consumers to make an informed choice about their audio purchases. There is not even one graph provided on anything! Just a few vague numbers with no specifications on how they were acquired.

My goal is to change that. Manufacturers could put me out of business overnight if they did the same testing.

I grew up in an era of electronic audio design where such graphs and detailed specs were commonplace. Over time, the logo list has replaced them. It is so bad that sometimes I go to the "specification page" and all I find are the dimensions of the audio product! We have let ourselves go. And companies have followed the same by not setting standards for performance and meeting and exceeding them.

Mind you, I have reached out to companies but rarely if ever they answer. Here is what I sent to Pioneer/Onkyo after I tested their AVR last year: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...d-measurements-of-pioneer-vsx-lx504-avr.8862/

View attachment 69778

I did not hear a thing.

This is not good of course. These companies need to take efforts like ours seriously. Their customers care more about performance than they think. They are their early adopters and mean a lot. At least I think they do.

This is a thoughtful and honorable answer. Trashing a product and shaming the company rarely achieves your desired result of making a better product for consumers. Why aren't you designing and making these better products if you want to help the audio industry instead of just pointing the finger at the manufacturer?

 

[Sal1950]

At the end of the day I think that once Emotiva gets Dirac sorted it might be the best option out there. I was hoping to see a new Anthem product but it seems is not going to happen.

I hope your right but IME they never seen to get their software bugs worked out before moving on to the next product. I've had high hopes for Emo but have been continually disappointed.

 

[Angsty]

Wow such witty banter. I was so hoping you would think I was smart. I needed your validation. Could you please reconsider? Pretty please? Ham handed delivery? Could you please call me sonny boy and tell me to get off your lawn? LOL

Exactly.

 

[North_Sky]

On avsforum, some buddy of the Sound United CEO (parent company of Denon) tried to besmirch Amir and his testing of the 4700. Didn't go well for that poster with other posters (including me) that replied to his post..
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-r...s-thread-faq-posts-1-8-a-24.html#post59829854

The thread is on quarantine (under lockdown) for hyperventilating.
Hope is not infected seriously and nobody dies ...

 

[Sal1950]

But my credentials and relationships aren't necessary to call out hypocrisy of a dealer posting reviews without disclosing those relationships.

A lie repeated often enough still never become true.

I have more relationships in the Audio Video Industry than you could possibly fathom to be honest

I don't believe you, believe your FOS, you don't write like you have enough education to be a janitor for any decent audio company.
It's your integrity I find at question here.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Anyone know when the X8700 is coming? They didn’t mention it in the press release, so probably not until November. Maybe someone with a direct relationship with the CEO of Sound United could get an official release date, but I doubt someone like that would be perusing this thread.

 

[North_Sky]

I actually have more important things to do then wait around for posts and reply. I have more relationships in the Audio Video Industry than you could possibly fathom to be honest. But my credentials and relationships aren't necessary to call out hypocrisy of a dealer posting reviews without disclosing those relationships. Posting that info at the top of every review would make the review more credible . Not disclosing it calls into question the reviewer's integrity even if the measurements are what they are. Because then it becomes more about the reviewer's motivations rather than the measurements and why wouldn't they disclose that info if they had nothing to hide. Even you can understand that. Maybe. LOL

You gonna need a bigger boat.