Denon AVR-X4700H 2020 AVR Review

[Sal1950]

Also in his signature:

He can't be bothered to read the signature, just want's to post over and over how Amir doesn't reveal his manufacturer relationships when it's in the signature of each and every of his posts, and stated in the first or second paragraph of most product reviews Madrona is a dealer for... Never mind the facts, just try and blow a bunch of smoke telling fairy tales.

I don’t feed trolls, but I don’t mind coming for them with torches and pitchforks.

"Get A Rope" is my fav. LOL

 

[amirm]

This is a thoughtful and honorable answer. Trashing a product and shaming the company rarely achieves your desired result of making a better product for consumers.

Again, it is your opinion that the measurements show this product to be trash. I didn't call it such. I objected to it going backwards in performance relative to their own product.

As for shaming, of course. I need to get them to take action because clearly on their own, they have people like you praising them no matter how they execute. Audio product development is about fidelity. Company screams about this in its advertising:

"Superb audio fidelity." The product can't even resolve 16 bit audio correctly. How is it handling high-res audio with superb fidelity? Isn't too much noise lack of fidelity?

They finish with this:

Where is evidence of "Amazing Sound?" THe current management is helping destroy that 110 year old reputation of building superior audio products compared to low-end tier.

Remember, I am not even holding them up to state of the art products. They have no prayer of getting there even under the best of circumstances. SINAD for those is exceeding 122 dB. In some cases even my analyzer is not good enough to measure them!

For AVR, you can get a sound card and measure and find the issues I discovered. It is that bad of performance.

You seem to put no value on excellence in engineering, execution and design. As long as it has logos coming out of your ear, you seem to be happy. You know, like the dumb mass market.

We are different here. We are informed. We know how to go past empty marketing claims like what I have quoted and get to the truth. That truth hurts and we now have you crying on our shoulders as if we care. Come back when you have some data to add to the conversations. That is what rules here: reliable data.

 

[Doodski]

Because then it becomes more about the reviewer's motivations rather than the measurements and why wouldn't they disclose that info if they had nothing to hide. Even you can understand that. Maybe. LOL

Apparently to you but the general population is not concerned this way. Why should they be?

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Also in his signature:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/a-bit-about-your-host.1906/

No one needs to worship anyone (you should see the complainants around his subjectove reviews of speakers ) we just need to look at the measurements, which have been shown to be accurate and match the company specs if they too have good measurement gear (his measurements were better than what PS Audio has claimed, and I think it was shown their measurement rig can’t measure better than CD quality). Unless you are implying that he intentionally screws up performance by changing some parameters.

Thank you for that. He certainly seems to have the experience and knowledge that would induce such allegiance and devotion. I should have known more before questioning his expertise. He is an expert by any definition in many fields. I am humbled but his background. I still think it should be disclosed that he is a dealer at the beginning of every review. What he is measuring still isn't audible for the main purpose of today's AVR, which is home theater. But I do thank you for educating me about Amir. He does sound like a pretty amazing guy who has lived many lives in his lifetime.

 

[North_Sky]

3 years is a long time? LOL. What are Amir's credentials that you guys all think he walks on water. Just curious.

He was @ AVSForum in the 50s. Or early 2000s.

He's a good man, like you...you are a good man, right? ...X-Men?

 

[A.West]

Normally, a reviewer might talk about how on one track after another, a voice sang or a drum boomed, then said something about the remote control. In England they like to talk about electronics conveying rhythm and pace, as if some receivers somehow miss a beat.
Honestly, I do sometimes feel Amir sometimes overemphsizes 2 channel audio, or measures at excessive output levels, and doesn't make it clear where the boundaries of audibility are, and often ignores important use-case features like DSP and room correction that may have a bigger practical impact than THD+distortion. But Amir measures what he likes pretty consistently, and people who don't like it can go somewhere else.

 

[Doodski]

It is silly to expect them to have the same performance measurements at a tenth of the cost.

What part of the tests did you not appreciate?

 

[amirm]

Why aren't you designing and making these better products if you want to help the audio industry instead of just pointing the finger at the manufacturer?

I have paid my dues for decades. I managed hardware projects at Sony and two broadcast hardware video companies, one public and one private. I hate hardware development with passion given the myriad of dependencies, inventory management, distribution, etc., etc.

I also know better than to get into audio hardware business. When I was at Microsoft I had the pleasure of sitting next to top executives at companies and talk about these product lines. Most are sold at pure loss just to save face and stay in market. Look at where Sharp is today. Look at what happened to Pioneer.

Kudos to people who still go to work and produce these hardware products. It just isn't for me.

My contributions are what I am doing right now. Investing my own time, resources, money, etc. to produce these reviews.

What you can do to help is stop making things worse for these companies. Let them take their breath and come back with an answer. Don't create animosity and negative atmosphere. It is not a battle, nor does it need to be. I am here to help them improve their products. Some of the things I found can be fixed in firmware I am sure.

Ultimately we all want better products. If you share that goal, then reach out to your CEO friend and let him know about this review. Make sure it is on his radar and he reads and learns what we are finding. And helps put some standards in place, as hard as it may be to do that with the Japanese team.

 

[zelig]

"You are breaking the golden rule of Internet discussions: don't feed the trolls. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but let's not let their opinions dominate the conversation. They are each, after all, just one person."

- Captain Obvious

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Again, it is your opinion that the measurements show this product to be trash. I didn't call it such. I objected to it going backwards in performance relative to their own product.

As for shaming, of course. I need to get them to take action because clearly on their own, they have people like you praising them no matter how they execute. Audio product development is about fidelity. Company screams about this in its advertising:

View attachment 69793

"Superb audio fidelity." The product can't even resolve 16 bit audio correctly. How is it handling high-res audio with superb fidelity? Isn't too much noise lack of fidelity?

They finish with this:

View attachment 69794

Where is evidence of "Amazing Sound?" THe current management is helping destroy that 110 year old reputation of building superior audio products compared to low-end tier.

Remember, I am not even holding them up to state of the art products. They have no prayer of getting there even under the best of circumstances. SINAD for those is exceeding 122 dB. In some cases even my analyzer is not good enough to measure them!

For AVR, you can get a sound card and measure and find the issues I discovered. It is that bad of performance.

You seem to put no value on excellence in engineering, execution and design. As long as it has logos coming out of your ear, you seem to be happy. You know, like the dumb mass market.

We are different here. We are informed. We know how to go past empty marketing claims like what I have quoted and get to the truth. That truth hurts and we now have you crying on our shoulders as if we care. Come back when you have some data to add to the conversations. That is what rules here: reliable data.

Sincerely your background which a member kindly pointed me to view is pretty amazing. I do think you have the best intentions for making consumer audio better. Has what you have been doing these last 3-4 years been achieving that goal by posting these measurements and shaming these brands? Not being a smart aleck. It doesn't seem like it is working . Maybe it is time for a different strategy. Maybe you should create a startup, as you have experience in that arena, to deliver better AVR products. Instead of tearing down you could be creating. You seem to have the experience, knowledge and background to do so. Wouldn't that be more satisfying than pointing out all that is wrong? I am being sincere.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

I have paid my dues for decades. I managed hardware projects at Sony and two broadcast hardware video companies, one public and one private. I hate hardware development with passion given the myriad of dependencies, inventory management, distribution, etc., etc.

I also know better than to get into audio hardware business. When I was at Microsoft I had the pleasure of sitting next to top executives at companies and talk about these product lines. Most are sold at pure loss just to save face and stay in market. Look at where Sharp is today. Look at what happened to Pioneer.

Kudos to people who still go to work and produce these hardware products. It just isn't for me.

My contributions are what I am doing right now. Investing my own time, resources, money, etc. to produce these reviews.

What you can do to help is stop making things worse for these companies. Let them take their breath and come back with an answer. Don't create animosity and negative atmosphere. It is not a battle, nor does it need to be. I am here to help them improve their products. Some of the things I found can be fixed in firmware I am sure.

Ultimately we all want better products. If you share that goal, then reach out to your CEO friend and let him know about this review. Make sure it is on his radar and he reads and learns what we are finding. And helps put some standards in place, as hard as it may be to do that with the Japanese team.

I can understand your point of view. The language you used to describe the product wasn't an olive branch. Be honest with yourself. The words you chose weren't meant to invite a collaboration to improve the product. I can admit I was wrong about your intentions and motivations. You just want a better engineered AVR. But what if your reviews actually do more harm than good and more companies go under. What will the little guy be able to afford then? Just a thought.

 

[North_Sky]

Thank you for that. He certainly seems to have the experience and knowledge that would induce such allegiance and devotion. I should have known more before questioning his expertise. He is an expert by any definition in many fields. I am humbled but his background. I still think it should be disclosed that he is a dealer at the beginning of every review. What he is measuring still isn't audible for the main purpose of today's AVR, which is home theater. But I do thank you for educating me about Amir. He does sound like a pretty amazing guy who has lived many lives in his lifetime.

Many of us here and elsewhere know Amir's goal in life; share the art of audio science @ the service of advancement and higher level of knowledge.
We know he is a Harman man. We don't condemn for it, we simply embrace him for who he is, not what he has. But he has a good sota audio measuring machine...precision.
We just learn some from the guy, there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Do you like the Denon 3600? Are you an AVR man type, a stereo man (strereotype), or a mono type?

 

[zelig]

Do you like the Denon 3600? Are you an AVR man type, a stereo man (strereotype), or a mono type?

Which of those is closest to a twat?

 

[SimpleTheater]

Sincerely your background which a member kindly pointed me to view is pretty amazing. I do think you have the best intentions for making consumer audio better. Has what you have been doing these last 3-4 years been achieving that goal by posting these measurements and shaming these brands? Not being a smart aleck. It doesn't seem like it is working . Maybe it is time for a different strategy. Maybe you should create a startup, as you have experience in that arena, to deliver better AVR products. Instead of tearing down you could be creating. You seem to have the experience, knowledge and background to do so. Wouldn't that be more satisfying than pointing out all that is wrong? I am being sincere.

Kudos @Skylarlove1999 , you’ve put out an olive branch (and I’m being sincere).

‘Now, onto your point, Amir has only recently begun reviewing AVRs. DACs were the primary reviews earlier, and companies like Schitt have gone from “headless Panthers” to top-rated. They are now so proud of their products, they are sending them in for review.

Once AVR manufacturers realize they are losing out sales to well-measured rivals, they will begin making better products. I’m sure of it.

 

[North_Sky]

Ah, finally someone got that! I was losing hope in you all....

We are into measurements. We like the pink panther front or back no matter.
And with its tale facing us what are supposed to deduct?
Without a head there's no direction.

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Many of us here and elsewhere know Amir's goal in life; share the art of audio science @ the service of advancement and higher level of knowledge.
We know he is a Harman man. We don't condemn for it, we simply embrace him for who he is, not what he has. But he has a good sota audio measuring machine...precision.
We just learn some from the guy, there's nothing wrong with that, is there?

Do you like the Denon 3600? Are you an AVR man type, a stereo man (strereotype), or a mono type?

My current AVR is the 6500. I am a home theater guy. There is nothing wrong with measurements but that should be put in context with what the human ear can discern and giving real world listening impressions. I get that isn't what is valued her or even discussed. My concern is what if all the companies being told they make products that are intolerable to listen to decide it isn't worth the public shaming and vilification anymore and the exodus of companies from consumer audio continues. Less competition generally doesn't lead to better products. What is the end goal of these reviews? The reviews are written in a manner clearly to be weaponized against a brand? Driving more companies away will not make for a better consumer audio experience.

 

[MZKM]

What he is measuring still isn't audible for the main purpose of today's AVR, which is home theater.

The larger reason of concern is the degredated performance compared to the X3600H. Because yes, I would believe most people that own this won’t hear any issues.

If the 2021 model of supercar (Bugatti, McLaren, etc.) had a lower top speed, don’t you think it is reasonable for car enthusiasts and magazines to point it out? 99% of the owners are driving them in metros and never go above 100, so it doesn’t really matter to them, but does the addition of QI wireless chargers built-in and a more response touch screen offset this? Mottos are usually “New & Improved” not “New & Different”.

 

[North_Sky]

Which of those is closest to a twat?

Multiverse

 

[Skylarlove1999]

Kudos @Skylarlove1999 , you’ve put out an olive branch (and I’m being sincere).

‘Now, onto your point, Amir has only recently begun reviewing AVRs. DACs were the primary reviews earlier, and companies like Schitt have gone from “headless Panthers” to top-rated. They are now so proud of their products, they are sending them in for review.

Once AVR manufacturers realize they are losing out sales to well-measured rivals, they will begin making better products. I’m sure of it.

I hope you are right. My concern is with so many companies having left the budget AVR business it is reduced competition which only leads to reduced quality. I think there is also a point of diminishing returns for measurements for AVR. I don't wish to see any more companies leave the business.

 

[North_Sky]

My current AVR is the 6500. I am a home theater guy. There is nothing wrong with measurements but that should be put in context with what the human ear can discern and giving real world listening impressions. I get that isn't what is valued her or even discussed. My concern is what if all the companies being told they make products that are intolerable to listen to decide it isn't worth the public shaming and vilification anymore and the exodus of companies from consumer audio continues. Less competition generally doesn't lead to better products. What is the end goal of these reviews? The reviews are written in a manner clearly to be weaponized against a brand? Driving more companies away will not make for a better consumer audio experience.

If the 4700 would measure good I am certain we would know.
It'll be our respectable host pleasure to tell us.

Me I'm for good solid engineering and reasonable practice in this audio hobby of ours.
_____

* https://usa.denon.com/en-us/shop/receivers/avrx6500h_d