Topping A90 Headphone Amplifier Review

[RickSanchez]

I always thought capacitors needed some break in.

The whole thread is worth a read, but this post in particular is helpful / relevant:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...uipment-burn-in-am-i-deluded.5339/post-118257

partial quote ...

"There is also the point of circuits needing to get at the correct operating points (usually heat related) but this would happen every time you switch it on and not go away after 1 or 2 times of usage. Idle currents being one of them.

Often 'forming' of caps is used as an excuse for wet electrolytics but usually isn't a problem unless it was never powered up (and then only for the first few seconds) or when caps are old and have not been used for many many years."

 

[EchoChamber]

The whole thread is worth a read, but this post in particular is helpful / relevant:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...uipment-burn-in-am-i-deluded.5339/post-118257

partial quote ...

Cool, thank you! Do you think the sonic difference perception could be related to a warm up time? Because that’s how the A90 feels like. I’ve only really used it for 2 days, but when I first start using it in the morning it sounds kind of steril and veiled, but then that goes away and it sounds like nothing.

 

[ReaderZ]

Solid state amps such as the A90 do not "burn in".

Tube doesn't really burn in either, just need time to warm up.

 

[RickSanchez]

Cool, thank you! Do you think the sonic difference perception could be related to a warm up time? Because that’s how the A90 feels like. I’ve only really used it for 2 days, but when I first start using it in the morning it sounds kind of steril and veiled, but then that goes away and it sounds like nothing.

As solderdude mentions in his post, some devices are designed for optimal performance at a certain operating temp. The Sabaj D5 (read the first paragraph under "DAC Audio Measurements") is an example of this, but in my limited experience 30 minutes of warm-up time is on the extreme high end of the spectrum. If the A90 needs any initial warm-up time -- and I'm not saying it does -- I'm guessing it would be measured in seconds or a couple minutes, and differences between cold and normal operating temp would likely be inaudible. You can ask JohnYang1997.

My general point is that if you're hearing differences over the course of hours that is purely your own perception / cognitive bias, not the A90.

 

[hmscott]

Solid state amps such as the A90 do not "burn in".

DAC's, Audio AMP's, RF AMP's, all manor of digital and analogue devices change characteristics as they "age" - or burn-in.

I learned early on as an audiophile to not "toss out" a new piece of gear just because it's not sounding good when I first power it on. I give it as long as the return period allows, running it day and night - enjoying it by listening to it, and most of the time it recovers it's expected graces and I keep it long term.

As a consumer I've experienced it every time I buy a new device and live with it day after day. I've noticed this burn-in effect since the 1970's, and I'm still hearing it today with my FiiO M15 - it's sound stage has improved and "mellowed out" - it wasn't harsh, but now it's even easier on the ears 2+ weeks later.

Nothing's changed over the years, except now more people are experiencing and recognizing it themselves.

Including Hi-fi Audio reviewers:

HI-FI AUDIO COMPONENT BREAK-IN (BURN-IN): FACT OR FICTION
John E. Johnson, JULY 29, 2019 EDITOR'S DESK EDITORIAL

"...I have increasingly become aware of an actual difference in the sound quality during my product testing. And, I mean, I could really perceive the difference. It is dramatic.

One DAC, for example, came with a recommendation of leaving the unit powered on for at least one day before making any critical judgments. Initially, I did not think about it. But, when I first turned it on, I noticed that the sound had an unpleasant harshness. After 8 hours, the harshness was reduced, and after 24 hours, it was completely gone. The DAC had a much smoother overall sound. It was dramatic enough that I decided to write this editorial.

What is the nature of audio component break-in (burn-in)?

As a scientist, I want to know how this process occurs..."
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/hi-fi-audio-component-break-in-burn-in-fact-or-fiction/

As an engineer I've had lots of experience with age related differences in electronic components - with ECO's and debugging / troubleshooting notes for technical staff when repairing equipment that is returned over decades of use. There are definite cycles of aging - and different reactions in different climates to component aging. But you say that's on the scale of months, years, and decades, what about initial burn-in - say in the 100 hour range?

That's what "burn-in" in manufacturing is used for in more critical applications of electronics. Those devices aren't simply assembled, tested, and packed up for shipping like consumer equipment. Nope. There are cycles of heating and cooling along with ambient temperature running of the components in board level and system level testing.

You don't hear about that because it's something not usually done for consumer equipment - the process is too expensive.

So for consumer gear it's your responsibility to do the "burn-in" testing - and as part of that you will hear audible differences in the sound produced in many gear. It's variable, but always there to some extent. A lot people don't notice it because of their own physiological variations from day to day will confuse or mask the aging sound of the gear through their ears.

Anyway, if you hear it great, if you don't hear it that's also great - whether you can perceive it or not, it's there either way so give your new gear as long as possible to "burn-in" before giving up on it.

As an aside, before I could "hear it" I could "perceive it" as "easier to listen to", not "getting on my nerves", rather than wanting to turn it off I want to keep listening to it. That's when I know it's turned the corner and burn-in is rounding the corner.

That happened with my M15 last week, and I turned around and decided to keep it. It now sounds too good to give it up, and I don't want to stop listening to it.

I fully expect the same burn-in audible improvements to happen with my new A90 and D90 MQA...

 

[Neutron]

DAC's, Audio AMP's, RF AMP's, all manor of digital and analogue devices change characteristics as they "age" - or burn-in.

I learned early on as an audiophile to not "toss out" a new piece of gear just because it's not sounding good when I first power it on. I give it as long as the return period allows, running it day and night - enjoying it by listening to it, and most of the time it recovers it's expected graces and I keep it long term.

As a consumer I've experienced it every time I buy a new device and live with it day after day. I've noticed this burn-in effect since the 1970's, and I'm still hearing it today with my FiiO M15 - it's sound stage has improved and "mellowed out" - it wasn't harsh, but now it's even easier on the ears 2+ weeks later.

Nothing's changed over the years, except now more people are experiencing and recognizing it themselves.

Including Hi-fi Audio reviewers:

HI-FI AUDIO COMPONENT BREAK-IN (BURN-IN): FACT OR FICTION
John E. Johnson, JULY 29, 2019 EDITOR'S DESK EDITORIAL

"...I have increasingly become aware of an actual difference in the sound quality during my product testing. And, I mean, I could really perceive the difference. It is dramatic.

One DAC, for example, came with a recommendation of leaving the unit powered on for at least one day before making any critical judgments. Initially, I did not think about it. But, when I first turned it on, I noticed that the sound had an unpleasant harshness. After 8 hours, the harshness was reduced, and after 24 hours, it was completely gone. The DAC had a much smoother overall sound. It was dramatic enough that I decided to write this editorial.

What is the nature of audio component break-in (burn-in)?

As a scientist, I want to know how this process occurs..."
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/hi-fi-audio-component-break-in-burn-in-fact-or-fiction/

As an engineer I've had lots of experience with age related differences in electronic components - with ECO's and debugging / troubleshooting notes for technical staff when repairing equipment that is returned over decades of use. There are definite cycles of aging - and different reactions in different climates to component aging. But you say that's on the scale of months, years, and decades, what about initial burn-in - say in the 100 hour range?

That's what "burn-in" in manufacturing is used for in more critical applications of electronics. Those devices aren't simply assembled, tested, and packed up for shipping like consumer equipment. Nope. There are cycles of heating and cooling along with ambient temperature running of the components in board level and system level testing.

You don't hear about that because it's something not usually done for consumer equipment - the process is too expensive.

So for consumer gear it's your responsibility to do the "burn-in" testing - and as part of that you will hear audible differences in the sound produced in many gear. It's variable, but always there to some extent. A lot people don't notice it because of their own physiological variations from day to day will confuse or mask the aging sound of the gear through their ears.

Anyway, if you hear it great, if you don't hear it that's also great - whether you can perceive it or not, it's there either way so give your new gear as long as possible to "burn-in" before giving up on it.

As an aside, before I could "hear it" I could "perceive it" as "easier to listen to", not "getting on my nerves", rather than wanting to turn it off I want to keep listening to it. That's when I know it's turned the corner and burn-in is rounding the corner.

That happened with my M15 last week, and I turned around and decided to keep it. It now sounds too good to give it up, and I don't want to stop listening to it.

I fully expect the same burn-in audible improvements to happen with my new A90 and D90 MQA...

Not saying some of those are not "possible", but it is unlikely for most components to develop a detectable change in specs very early in lifespan, except for the likes of tubes and some not-so-stable chemicals such as teflon caps.

Manufacturers burn stuff in only to catch defective units.

 

[boXem]

Manufacturers burn stuff in only to catch defective units.

Exactly. Purpose is to catch infant deaths. Components failure rate vs time has the shape of a valley, a bit like humans if you think about it.
Components manufacturers also do burn in at various steps of the component manufacturing, for the same reason.

 

[w1000i]

After spending the morning working and moving components around, I can NOT tell the difference between the D90 MQA and the ADI-2. This is guerrilla testing, not precisely level matched, only by ear, the ADI-2 output is higher, etc. And only subjective. If I had more time and the right set up I'd take the time to do it right. It is however how I'm using my headphone gear now, at my desk mostly. And mostly with the 177x (close backs) to be more isolated from external noises and get into the groove focusing on work.

I can however tell the difference between the 177x and the Sundara, one is connected in SE and the other balanced - not apples to apples, but close enough IMO. I plan to build a balanced cable at some point for the 177x... I can also tell the difference between leather and velour pads on the 177x. I perceive the Sundara having more body and weight sonically than the 177x in this test, both are equally detailed IMO and I can listen to them at low volumes with a ton of information perceived - this is quite something and I credit it to the clarity and low distortion of the A90.

So, @Wazzupi , my (very) subjective conclusion is that both DACs sound the same feeding the A90. I can't tell the difference with master Tidal tracks whether in MQA or not either. If you don't need all the excellent features the ADI-2 offers, I'd say go for the D90 (with or without MQA). I'll try to have some speaker time later today with the ADI-2 and see if these observations also translate in that system.

I believed when a good DAC signal goes into any AMP, You will hear the AMP sound not the DAC and the AMP signature will dominants.

I tired that with CHORD mojo and SMSL M500. Both they feed 2 amplifiers ( Shiit heresy & Gilmore mk2 ) and I couldn't hear any difference between the DACs. But when I compare the DACs with their internal simple amp the deference is very clear

 

[shiroang]

My A90 just arrived today! Only managed to set it up after work, but haven't tried listening to it yet.
Also ordered the D90 last night after getting some confirmation from the users, that it could work with my AVR and passive speakers setup too (ability to use the DAC on D90, but using my AVR to power the passive speakers via A90 preamp out)!

Hope to use the upcoming D90 + A90 for at least a few years to come!

 

[Martin]

DAC's, Audio AMP's, RF AMP's, all manor of digital and analogue devices change characteristics as they "age" - or burn-in.

I learned early on as an audiophile to not "toss out" a new piece of gear just because it's not sounding good when I first power it on. I give it as long as the return period allows, running it day and night - enjoying it by listening to it, and most of the time it recovers it's expected graces and I keep it long term.

As a consumer I've experienced it every time I buy a new device and live with it day after day. I've noticed this burn-in effect since the 1970's, and I'm still hearing it today with my FiiO M15 - it's sound stage has improved and "mellowed out" - it wasn't harsh, but now it's even easier on the ears 2+ weeks later.

Nothing's changed over the years, except now more people are experiencing and recognizing it themselves.

Including Hi-fi Audio reviewers:

HI-FI AUDIO COMPONENT BREAK-IN (BURN-IN): FACT OR FICTION
John E. Johnson, JULY 29, 2019 EDITOR'S DESK EDITORIAL

"...I have increasingly become aware of an actual difference in the sound quality during my product testing. And, I mean, I could really perceive the difference. It is dramatic.

One DAC, for example, came with a recommendation of leaving the unit powered on for at least one day before making any critical judgments. Initially, I did not think about it. But, when I first turned it on, I noticed that the sound had an unpleasant harshness. After 8 hours, the harshness was reduced, and after 24 hours, it was completely gone. The DAC had a much smoother overall sound. It was dramatic enough that I decided to write this editorial.

What is the nature of audio component break-in (burn-in)?

As a scientist, I want to know how this process occurs..."
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/hi-fi-audio-component-break-in-burn-in-fact-or-fiction/

As an engineer I've had lots of experience with age related differences in electronic components - with ECO's and debugging / troubleshooting notes for technical staff when repairing equipment that is returned over decades of use. There are definite cycles of aging - and different reactions in different climates to component aging. But you say that's on the scale of months, years, and decades, what about initial burn-in - say in the 100 hour range?

That's what "burn-in" in manufacturing is used for in more critical applications of electronics. Those devices aren't simply assembled, tested, and packed up for shipping like consumer equipment. Nope. There are cycles of heating and cooling along with ambient temperature running of the components in board level and system level testing.

You don't hear about that because it's something not usually done for consumer equipment - the process is too expensive.

So for consumer gear it's your responsibility to do the "burn-in" testing - and as part of that you will hear audible differences in the sound produced in many gear. It's variable, but always there to some extent. A lot people don't notice it because of their own physiological variations from day to day will confuse or mask the aging sound of the gear through their ears.

Anyway, if you hear it great, if you don't hear it that's also great - whether you can perceive it or not, it's there either way so give your new gear as long as possible to "burn-in" before giving up on it.

As an aside, before I could "hear it" I could "perceive it" as "easier to listen to", not "getting on my nerves", rather than wanting to turn it off I want to keep listening to it. That's when I know it's turned the corner and burn-in is rounding the corner.

That happened with my M15 last week, and I turned around and decided to keep it. It now sounds too good to give it up, and I don't want to stop listening to it.

I fully expect the same burn-in audible improvements to happen with my new A90 and D90 MQA...

Audible improvement perceived during "burn-in" is your mind becoming accustomed to the sound and NOT any measureable change within the component.

Martin

 

[Stephen]

My A90 just arrived today! Only managed to set it up after work, but haven't tried listening to it yet.
Also ordered the D90 last night after getting some confirmation from the users, that it could work with my AVR and passive speakers setup too (ability to use the DAC on D90, but using my AVR to power the passive speakers via A90 preamp out)!

Hope to use the upcoming D90 + A90 for at least a few years to come!

View attachment 66913View attachment 66914View attachment 66915View attachment 66916View attachment 66917

Congratulation! How is responding the volume knob? satisfied?

 

[shiroang]

Congratulation! How is responding the volume knob? satisfied?

Just did a quick test, it's functioning well so nothing to comment on.

 

[Racheski]

DAC's, Audio AMP's, RF AMP's, all manor of digital and analogue devices change characteristics as they "age" - or burn-in.

I learned early on as an audiophile to not "toss out" a new piece of gear just because it's not sounding good when I first power it on. I give it as long as the return period allows, running it day and night - enjoying it by listening to it, and most of the time it recovers it's expected graces and I keep it long term.

As a consumer I've experienced it every time I buy a new device and live with it day after day. I've noticed this burn-in effect since the 1970's, and I'm still hearing it today with my FiiO M15 - it's sound stage has improved and "mellowed out" - it wasn't harsh, but now it's even easier on the ears 2+ weeks later.

Nothing's changed over the years, except now more people are experiencing and recognizing it themselves.

Including Hi-fi Audio reviewers:

HI-FI AUDIO COMPONENT BREAK-IN (BURN-IN): FACT OR FICTION
John E. Johnson, JULY 29, 2019 EDITOR'S DESK EDITORIAL

"...I have increasingly become aware of an actual difference in the sound quality during my product testing. And, I mean, I could really perceive the difference. It is dramatic.

One DAC, for example, came with a recommendation of leaving the unit powered on for at least one day before making any critical judgments. Initially, I did not think about it. But, when I first turned it on, I noticed that the sound had an unpleasant harshness. After 8 hours, the harshness was reduced, and after 24 hours, it was completely gone. The DAC had a much smoother overall sound. It was dramatic enough that I decided to write this editorial.

What is the nature of audio component break-in (burn-in)?

As a scientist, I want to know how this process occurs..."
https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/hi-fi-audio-component-break-in-burn-in-fact-or-fiction/

As an engineer I've had lots of experience with age related differences in electronic components - with ECO's and debugging / troubleshooting notes for technical staff when repairing equipment that is returned over decades of use. There are definite cycles of aging - and different reactions in different climates to component aging. But you say that's on the scale of months, years, and decades, what about initial burn-in - say in the 100 hour range?

That's what "burn-in" in manufacturing is used for in more critical applications of electronics. Those devices aren't simply assembled, tested, and packed up for shipping like consumer equipment. Nope. There are cycles of heating and cooling along with ambient temperature running of the components in board level and system level testing.

You don't hear about that because it's something not usually done for consumer equipment - the process is too expensive.

So for consumer gear it's your responsibility to do the "burn-in" testing - and as part of that you will hear audible differences in the sound produced in many gear. It's variable, but always there to some extent. A lot people don't notice it because of their own physiological variations from day to day will confuse or mask the aging sound of the gear through their ears.

Anyway, if you hear it great, if you don't hear it that's also great - whether you can perceive it or not, it's there either way so give your new gear as long as possible to "burn-in" before giving up on it.

As an aside, before I could "hear it" I could "perceive it" as "easier to listen to", not "getting on my nerves", rather than wanting to turn it off I want to keep listening to it. That's when I know it's turned the corner and burn-in is rounding the corner.

That happened with my M15 last week, and I turned around and decided to keep it. It now sounds too good to give it up, and I don't want to stop listening to it.

I fully expect the same burn-in audible improvements to happen with my new A90 and D90 MQA...

OT:
I don't remember studying electron "burn-in" during my chemistry classes in college. Maybe that is what killed Schrodinger's Cat?

 

[didi]

I have several questions to ask and comments:

a) Why does not Amirm measure the crosstalk of Topping A90 (which even on their site, for a balanced amplifier, should be way better than stated), as well as for D90?

b) I have had an awful, costly experience with D90, which is likely to occur with A90 too! In short, the mains cable to D90 got loose in its socket, with the amplifier on, and the terrible, powerful impulses that resulted (without D90 shutting down, having any protection, as it should) just ruined my audio system, consisting in D90,vMassdrop THX AAA, Sennheiser HD800, Benchmark AHB2, and KEF Q950. None of these work any longer as they used to! That is likely to occur with A90 as well, which features the same mains socket and plug! Benchmark delivers a specially locking-in mains cable, which prevents such incidents! The 220/110V cable should either feature an autolock or just be unremovable! Now I need to have all of the audio equipment replaced by, courtesy of Topping! I also own Topping D50, which has worked for years wonderfully!

Anyway, I presently returned the Topping D90 to the vendor!

c) I wonder why D90 features a voltage selector, which may be wrongly activated and burn the equipment? Was it too difficult to have voltage get selected automatically?

d) Years ago, we had very detailed guides to using computers as transports! I still wonder what Bios and Windows settings, and soft players, can really enable "bit-perfect" auditions! Otherwise, having most advanced DACs and amplifiers in a system that is not feed even 16bit signal is useless! I do wish Amirm will measure and write a guide to the best motherboard, processors and Bios settings to use!

 

[Veri]

Years ago, we had very detailed guides to using computers as transports! I still wonder what Bios and Windows settings, and soft players, can really enable "bit-perfect" auditions! Otherwise, having most advanced DACs and amplifiers in a system that is not feed even 16bit signal is useless! I do wish Amirm will measure and write a guide to the best motherboard, processors and Bios settings to use!

I really don't think there is a science to this. Windows, Linux and Mac machines should work just fine out of the box. Amir sometimes has problems because he uses a universal ASIO driver (count all DAC reviews, he doesn't want to install 100+ drivers!) which sometimes truncates 24-bit into 16-bit. This is because his audio analyser needs ASIO. For consumers like most of us, it is just plug and play... no nervosa necessary. (except for maty pushing his KS nonsense).

 

[DavidH]

Noobie question. I currently have the Topping A90 on order. I think I just watched/heard Z Reviews say that it is not powerful enough to drive Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm headphones. Is that correct? Do I need to try to cancel my order and look for something more powerful?

 

[Yuno]

I really don't think there is a science to this. Windows, Linux and Mac machines should work just fine out of the box. Amir sometimes has problems because he uses a universal ASIO driver (count all DAC reviews, he doesn't want to install 100+ drivers!) which sometimes truncates 24-bit into 16-bit. This is because his audio analyser needs ASIO. For consumers like most of us, it is just plug and play... no nervosa necessary. (except for maty pushing his KS nonsense).

I was always hoping to see DirectSound vs WASAPI vs ASIO test. I switched to DS because of inconvenience of using bitperfect on PC, and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything, but curiosity remains.

 

[Veri]

I switched to DS because of inconvenience of using bitperfect on PC, and don't feel like I'm missing out on anything

Me too. On Windows I'm not missing out on anything, on Mac I'm not missing out on anything. Why should I care and why did I ever care?
The age of BIOS related music tweaking is really long over by a decennia or so.

 

[VintageFlanker]

I think I just watched/heard Z Reviews say that it is not powerful enough to drive Beyerdynamic DT880 600ohm headphones. Is that correct?

If you only go by what Zeos says, you're doomed. From what I remember: he only evaluates headamps power by the sensitivity of the volume plot...
Decent entertainer... terrible when he intends to sound any kind of "technical".
The A90 provides enough power to drive literally any headphones. Even through unbal, it may goes up to 200mW/300Ω or 2W/32Ω before clipping. The DT880 can handle 100mW max. Just do the maths.

 

[RickSanchez]

I learned early on as an audiophile to not "toss out" a new piece of gear just because it's not sounding good when I first power it on.

I think that's a wise approach. However, your perception of the unit sounding better over time is not due to the components of a solid state device "burning in".

Anyhoo, this particular notion is off topic for the A90 thread. If you'd like to continue discussing burn in this is probably the best thread for it:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/equipment-burn-in-am-i-deluded.5339/