Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[BDWoody]

It very much looks like that.

I visited the AVS forum and reviewed @xhattan posts. Observations:

1. Posts usually (80% or more) concern what he owns (Pioneer, KEF, NAD);

2. Frequency of posts rises when new gear is obtained;

3. At least 1/3 of posts concern the NAD 758 AVR. Less on LS50s, even less on Pioneer.

From this I get the impression that @xhattan participates in forums for the purposes of validation. It would explain his sense of outrage, masking what is surely to be hurt feelings, over the review on the 758 review by @amirm

The desire for validation appears to be growing. I base this on the length of his overall participation in the AVS forum (since 2012) and the frequency of posts concerning gear of the past (roughly described in the analysis business as "content analysis").

Since AV buyers seem to follow the dictum of "buy what's hot, buy frequently" (a syndrome known as "WhatHiFI itis"), my guess is the @xhattan will eventually get off of the NAD 758 rant. NAD appears to part of a brand belief structure, however, so @xhattan may be stuck on fanboism for quite some time.

As all of the posts are brand/model specific, there is some likelihood that @xhattan doesn't know/care about underlying technologies. That doesn't prevent frequent brand/trade name dropping but it does seem to limit the depth to which @xhattan is prepared to discuss strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, etc.

So @xhattan will likely prattle on at reasonable frequency when NAD, 758s, LS50s are mentioned. The focus of his posts will continue to be about achieving a modicum of validation from the group. This will continue until @xhattan finds the new religion of a new product/manufacturer.

The good news is that @xhattan is unlikely to pollute other threads, as his threshold of technical knowledge is generally low. We may, however, wish to be on guard in case butt-hurt progresses to full-blown diaper rash. Topical lotions won't work here, as the hurt/rash originates in a deeper place.

Maybe the NAD would make a good suppository...?

 

[Flak]

I've read the banner about being ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously, nonetheless I'm suprised by the tone of some posts in this thread

 

[GrimSurfer]

[According to @xhattan, "a good education is not required to post here".]

You will have gathered by now that people hear react negatively to emotional, Ill-considered, vociferous responses of low intellectual rigor. They react positively to measured data, explanations of how things work, and observations on how audio technologies affect us.

It is clear, therefore, that @xhattan doesn't yet understand this forum. It's only been a few days.

 

[graz_lag]

We can ask him to fill up a report ...

 

[Timbo2]

Since AV buyers seem to follow the dictum of "buy what's hot, buy frequently" (a syndrome known as "WhatHiFi-itis" after that brilliant, deep, and technically immersive web site) my guess is the @xhattan will eventually get off of the NAD 758 rant. NAD appears to part of a brand belief structure, however, so @xhattan may be stuck on fanboism for quite some time.

I've no data to disagree with this, but I can't think of anything worse than removing an AVR from my system connecting all the sources again and re-calibrating the room and getting the remote control reprogrammed.

It's part of the reason I've not replaced my dying (source switching inputs) AVR. I'm dreading getting everything to work again.

 

[SimpleTheater]

I've read the banner about being ready to be teased and not take online life too seriously, nonetheless I'm suprised by the tone of some posts in this thread

I agree. @xhattan is clearly looking for validation of his purchase, but that is no reason to go beyond explaining why he is wrong. If you read @xhattan posts about cost, this may have been years of his savings to buy this NAD, and a $4,000 unit may be completely out of his reach simply to get Dirac Live.

Prior to @amirm testing this unit, online reviews from Sound & Vision, AV Nirvana, Secrets if HT, etc, all gave this unit glowing reviews. So @xhattan may have done extensive research before buying it. And worse, the testing here leaves no wiggle room - the product just sucks. The argument that Dirac can fix it would be the same as saying there is no purpose to engineering a better product because, well, Dirac.

I honestly think @xhattan does understand and just needs some time to digest what he's been reading.

 

[digicidal]

I think there are some "growing pains" associated with the presence of a more objective approach to reviewing devices entirely. I also think there is a bit of a tendency to jump on anything perceived as a "threat to the method" or to @amirm - I encountered this as well when questioning whether or not single sample measurements could reasonably be considered inviolate in the sense that I believed there could be failed products escaping QC. I was told (in absolute certain terms) that there couldn't be such a case, or that @amirm would immediately know if it was. Meanwhile there have been a few cases of this very thing which occurred in two different DACs so far.

There is an obvious tendency in some to feel that a poor result for a product they purchased is somehow a reflection on their own competence - which is even more baffling to me. If anything, I feel disappointed in the company (Marantz in my case) for not delivering on their promises to some extent - but no one was holding a gun to my head when I clicked "buy" either.

The landscape of consumer electronics (especially hifi gear) is changing, mostly for the better, and largely due to an increased focus on objective analysis from sites like this. It's a great time to be a music lover! That being said the trends established over the past few decades won't change overnight - until companies understand that they simply can't put a new box on an old design with one more "bullet point feature" and call it exciting new technology. There are some who are getting more involved, precisely because of this site and @amirm providing objective analysis to help them better serve their customers. I'm positive that Topping would likely still be written off as crap - were it not for their generally fantastic results (and subsequent improvements) demonstrated here.

Hopefully, the more mainstream established brands will follow suit. In the meantime, I just write off much of the emotional exchanges as part of the growing pains - especially where brand loyalty (near worship in some cases) reaches irrational extremes. Then again, I've had similar hopes and expectations as far as politics are concerned... and it seems to just be getting worse.

 

[peng]

I agree. @xhattan is clearly looking for validation of his purchase, but that is no reason to go beyond explaining why he is wrong. If you read @xhattan posts about cost, this may have been years of his savings to buy this NAD, and a $4,000 unit may be completely out of his reach simply to get Dirac Live.

Prior to @amirm testing this unit, online reviews from Sound & Vision, AV Nirvana, Secrets if HT, etc, all gave this unit glowing reviews. So @xhattan may have done extensive research before buying it. And worse, the testing here leaves no wiggle room - the product just sucks. The argument that Dirac can fix it would be the same as saying there is no purpose to engineering a better product because, well, Dirac.

I honestly think @xhattan does understand and just needs some time to digest what he's been reading.

It took me years to learn to ignore the subjective parts of those reviews (S&V, Secrets, Stereophile, even AH's) but as I do still read them for fun and entertainment. So I also believe a lot of people do make their purchases based on, or at least under the influence of what the reviewers said.

 

[digicidal]

It took me years to learn to ignore the subjective parts of those reviews (S&V, Secrets, Stereophile, even AH's) but as I do still read them for fun and entertainment. So I also believe a lot of people do make their purchases based on, or at least under the influence of what the reviewers said.

Me too. In fact I remember you from AH forums - don't post much any more, but I stop by from time to time.

As with any aspect of life, it's a process - and often learning new things requires being bitten in the ass by bad decisions. It's long been the irrational panacea of perfectionists (like myself) to believe that as long as enough research is done - mistakes can be avoided. However, as long as you're using subjective impressions of things as the "research" (or for that matter incomplete and unverified manufacturer specifications) - mistakes can and will be made.

Luckily, even some of the worst purchasing decisions I've ever made still sounded good enough to enjoy - however, that doesn't mean that I don't welcome an opportunity to avoid repeating them in the future.

 

[peng]

I think Amir may gain on popularity if he would/could emphasize a touch more on "audibility" i.e. something like ".....likely not audible to most people....etc etc". Having said that, I have read numerous online articles on THD and I think while it has often been said that even 1% isn't audible, it is likely true that depending on the weighted contents of the harmonics, even 0.1% could be picked up and offensive to some people. So for me, I wouldn't touch anything with THD specs verified by measurements >0.01% just to be safer"er", the lower the better. Before anyone tells me about the negative feedback effects, don't bother, as I did research that one to the nth degree. I would, however, not hesitate to acquire something that has THD measured as high as 1%, if I know the reasons and have the opportunity to audition it extensively.. Does that sound fair?

 

[peng]

Me too. In fact I remember you from AH forums - don't post much any more, but I stop by from time to time.

As with any aspect of life, it's a process - and often learning new things requires being bitten in the ass by bad decisions. It's long been the irrational panacea of perfectionists (like myself) to believe that as long as enough research is done - mistakes can be avoided. However, as long as you're using subjective impressions of things as the "research" (or for that matter incomplete and unverified manufacturer specifications) - mistakes can and will be made.

Luckily, even some of the worst purchasing decisions I've ever made still sounded good enough to enjoy - however, that doesn't mean that I don't welcome an opportunity to avoid repeating them in the future.

Even on forums, I am "guilty" of having contributed to spreading myths/hearsay online claiming/describing differences I heard between my own gear and gear I auditioned/compared at dealer's, when those comparisons weren't done level matched, or even using the same source, players etc., let alone blind.. It was in some way, like getting infected, not seeking immunization prior, etc..

 

[digicidal]

Add to that the visual nature of males... and it's pretty easy to fall into the "but it looks so impressive... how can it suck so bad" mentality. I'm certainly guilty of that one as well. One thing is for sure, as we age it gets much easier to shrug off relatively minor bouts of intellectual flatulence. When I was in my 20's and buying an AVR and some cheap "monkey coffins" was a huge investment... I would probably have been much more defensive.

Now that I've experienced writing off more in bad investment losses than even a full set of exotic boutique hifi would cost - it's much easier to just say "meh, I just won't hurry to give that company more money - but it's not that big of a deal this time."

 

[Dj7675]

Still no response from NAD but still hoping to get a response. NAD, on this unit has had quality control issue on the AM230 board. I believe things like hiss coming from the atmos speakers and other issues. Could a bad AM230 board be a cause of these poor measurements? Is the DAC located on this board? If this is the case I would think NAD would want this corrected and have a properly working unit tested. But in the end if they don’t respond and these measurements are reflective of the product I guess we have our answer.

 

[GrimSurfer]

I think Amir may gain on popularity if he would/could emphasize a touch more on "audibility" i.e. something like ".....likely not audible to most people....etc etc". Having said that, I have read numerous online articles on THD and I think while it has often been said that even 1% isn't audible, it is likely true that depending on the weighted contents of the harmonics, even 0.1% could be picked up and offensive to some people. So for me, I wouldn't touch anything with THD specs verified by measurements >0.01% just to be safer"er", the lower the better. Before anyone tells me about the negative feedback effects, don't bother, as I did research that one to the nth degree. I would, however, not hesitate to acquire something that has THD measured as high as 1%, if I know the reasons and have the opportunity to audition it extensively.. Does that sound fair?

A few challenges come to mind...

Most audiophiles are, ahem, over 40. So that means categorizing any spurious signals over 15 kHz as inaudible", which wouldn't serve younger people very well.

There is a wide gap between trained and untrained listeners' ability to detect audio phenomenon. So what should @amirm use as as his reference point? Who gets alienated?

Audibility can be determined, in part, by listening levels and the presence/intensity of ambient noise. So does he choose a particular spl or ambient noise level as the basis for his judgements, understanding that this can change the assessment of audibility?

The interests of the audio community are best served by furnishing objective measurement data, leaving readers to use their own particular circumstances to determine significance.

As an aside, you might be misjudging @amirm 's motives. They don't seem to have anything to do with popularity, which explains why he's quite comfortable saying some unpopular (but technically correct) things.

 

[Juhazi]

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...-thresholds-of-amp-and-dac-measurements.5734/

 

[xhattan]

So we should expect a correction there in your tone and style?

Sir, yes sir, as long as as you ask the same from Lord Audimus.

 

[RichB]

Sir, yes sir, as long as as you ask the same from Lord Audimus.

I am not a fan of dislike buttons, however...

- Rich

 

[xhattan]

It very much looks like that.

I visited the AVS forum and reviewed @xhattan posts. Observations:

1. Posts usually (80% or more) concern what he owns (Pioneer, KEF, NAD);

2. Frequency of posts rises when new gear is obtained;

3. At least 1/3 of posts concern the NAD 758 AVR. Less on LS50s, even less on Pioneer.

From this I get the impression that @xhattan participates in forums for the purposes of validation. It would explain his sense of outrage, masking what is surely to be hurt feelings, over the review on the 758 review by @amirm

The desire for validation appears to be growing. I base this on the length of his overall participation in the AVS forum (since 2012) and the frequency of posts concerning gear of the past (roughly described in the analysis business as "content analysis").

Since AV buyers seem to follow the dictum of "buy what's hot, buy frequently" (a syndrome known as "WhatHiFi-itis" after that brilliant, deep, and technically immersive web site) my guess is the @xhattan will eventually get off of the NAD 758 rant. NAD appears to part of a brand belief structure, however, so @xhattan may be stuck on fanboism for quite some time.

As all of the posts are brand/model specific, there is some likelihood that @xhattan doesn't know/care about underlying technologies. That doesn't prevent frequent brand/trade name dropping but it does seem to limit the depth to which @xhattan is prepared to discuss strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, etc.

So @xhattan will likely prattle on at reasonable frequency when NAD, 758s, LS50s are mentioned. The focus of his posts will continue to be about achieving a modicum of validation from the group. This will continue until @xhattan finds the new religion of a new product/manufacturer.

The good news is that @xhattan is unlikely to pollute other threads, as his threshold of technical knowledge is generally low. We may, however, wish to be on guard in case butt-hurt progresses to full-blown diaper rash. Topical lotions won't work here, as the hurt/rash originates in a deeper place.

Well, thank you. But I don´t think I deserve this much attention.

I´ve never even looked at my stats at AVS, or AVForum, or any other forum. Of course my participation is limited to equipment I own, since it´s the best way to get the best out of them and solve issues when they arise. Didn´t realize this could be a reason to go to therapy. Sorry.

And yes, my participation, specially with the T758, DENON AVRs and Oppo 103 (not so much LS50s), was mostly asking questions and solving issues, and AVS is the best place in the world to do this. DENON has Batpig and Jdsmoothie answering anything you throw at them. And the NAD T758 had Markus767 and Richardsim (and some other guys) too. We had a lot of trouble at the beggining with Atmos hissing, crossovers, bass management, ARC, DTS:X update, and DIRAC implementation. Markus even created an iOS app to solve shortcomings in the remote.

All the rant here began when I suggested to give the NAD a try. Yes, I was wrong (as I already said to Amir) when I thought DIRAC could lessen distortion, but that doesn´t invalidate my conclusion that, even with the poor measurements of this AVR, DIRAC still manages to make it a great sounding device in a real world situation. And Flak supported this conclusion. I also said that I understand that we consumers should be asking more quality from brands, but we must also understand that quality has a price. And the T758, being what it is (a DIRAC AVR that costs almost 50% less than the cheapest one you can get from NAD or other brands) will have corners cut. Amir said that he could suggest better DIRAC devices, yet he hasn´t yet, cause there isn´t one for less than $2500.

My point always was that DIRAC could make more difference in the final result than a lousy THD could. Please see this link, its subjective, yes, but it´s a real world situation. A cheap component with lousy measurement against a monster audiophile component:

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

Ok, that´s it. Please let me know how the rest of the investigation goes. Surely @audimus is checking my INTERPOL and CIA records (just kidding, couldn´t resist it, lol).

Best regards.

 

[GrimSurfer]

You don't.

Your suggestion to try the 758, following scientific measurement, is about as logical as me suggesting that anyone "try" jumping off a tall building.

You show an unwavering penchant for subjectivity. Perhaps this is not the place for you.

 

[peng]

I am hopeful that NAD will response, and likely an honest one.

It may be worth repeating that with @amirm 's permission I forwarded his findings on the AV8805 to Marantz, and their engineering team responded in less than 10 days. So let's give NAD a couple of weeks.