Review and Measurements of NAD T758 V3 AVR

[RichB]

That trouble with measurements is they are not always affirming.

My HA-1 did not fair all that well and it was just hanging around, so now it has a new (and hopefully happy) owner.
I kept the Sonica DAC because it does Airplay. I used to have a lot more Oppo gear

- Rich

 

[audimus]

Of course Dirac can/will correct linear distortions (FR), that is a main function/objective of room EQ programs, whether it is Dirac, Audyssey, Trinnov, YPAO, Anthem ARC or others that work.

Yes, but irrelevant and unrelated to any distortion characteristics of the AVR circuitry linear or not.
The fact that the DRC is sitting inside the AVR to do so just makes it convenient to use, not a panacea for AVR inadequacies as implied by the trolling posts.

 

[peng]

Yes, but irrelevant and unrelated to any distortion characteristics of the AVR circuitry linear or not.
The fact that the DRC is sitting inside the AVR to do so just makes it convenient to use, not a panacea for AVR inadequacies as implied by the trolling posts.

Agreed, besides, just about any $1,000 list price AVR should have almost 0 linear distortions, i.e. flat from 20 to 20,000 Hz, it's the room induced/influenced distortions, again, that is the in-room freq and phase response distortions of the speakers that REQs are supposed to correct. It really has little to do with the AVR itself. That's really the point I am trying to make to xhattan, who seemed surprised by Flavio's comments about the so called linear distortions.

 

[speedy]

using a manual or automatic switch like the ARX ARX-RS-1 trigger controlled switch.

That ARX RS-1 is a cool XLR switch $260 and powered only by the trigger.

That ARX-RS-1 looks very cool. I've wanted something like that for a long time because I've found that the Home Theater bypass function that I've attempted to use in a number of DACs/Streamers/Preamps have had spotty reliability. I love how simple the RS-1 is. I'll ironically likely end up using one of these with an NAD C 658.

 

[SimpleTheater]

Room correction is a nebulous feature to test at best. I'd be steering well clear of that.

Agreed. I want to compare AVR’s and the best/competent performing unit with Dirac will get my money. Until then I’ll be content with my Yamaha A3050.

 

[Blumlein 88]

My optimism stems from the observation that these AVRs are unnecessarily bad; if they are outperformed by sub 10 dollar DACs it implies that one might have great performance almost by accident.

I would love, love to simplify my hifi and just have an AVR but as of yet no products seem to fit the bill.

I don't know that many AVR's will be a total good package. Because of including the power amps. I think the pre/pro is a more sensible solution, but yet it has not made it in the broad marketplace.

We know it would be possible to make a very good pre/pro for the money they charge. Pro audio recording devices provide very good performance often at twice as many channels. I know pre/pro's need the video circuitry and the ability to handle all the formats. Still getting the basic audio performance to be in the very good category isn't hard to do nor expensive. Many recording interfaces use only one chip per 8 channels. The people making pre/pros and that part of the AVR's just aren't really trying. They haven't needed to for the product to sell, there is limited competition in that area now, and so they have not and may not. The shame of it is there likely is actually no real cost involved. Just bother to care a little bit more.

 

[GrimSurfer]

Excellent point, @Blumlein 88 . Nothing I am seeing in AVRs leads me to believe that technical excellence in AVRs will be achieved at most consumer level price points. If the solution gets necked-down to a pre-pro, however, achieving excellent performance at a reasonable price point becomes a much more realistic goal.

Things are unlikely to change much while consumers "accept" what they're getting from AVRs, particularly those being sold in volume through BB retailers. It sure would be nice to see what manufacturers could achieve if they cared enough...

 

[Blumlein 88]

Just on curiosity, as I´m new here and haven´t read other reviews. Is there an AVR that has a state of the art calibration (at least Mult XT32) that has nice measurements and costs less than $1000?

The NAD measured the worst of all AVR's tested so far. AVR's haven't done well, but this was the worst.

I like Dirac better than the other correction softwares, and I've experience with a few of them on excellent gear. That doesn't save the NAD.

I'd like to have NAD explain why they let it perform this badly. It wouldn't take much to improve it dramatically. There is no good reason for this poor performance. None.

 

[xhattan]

I am not so sure about the “understand it” bit or the “extensively debated” given you just posted this on AVSforum

https://www.avsforum.com/forum/90-receivers-amps-processors/2895049-nad-758-v3-321.html#post58539810



If you read any thread here that you are not vested in, you will find a lot of dissent and debate. If there is any intolerance, it is for ignorant debate. Such as spouting off on things, where it is obvious to most that you have no idea what you are talking about like “linear distorsions” or what Dirac really does. AVSforum is a lot more tolerant of such things and posts like the above given that is more of a norm there than here. To each, his own.

And Amir is labeled a well-known “Internet agitator” in that thread and said like it is a bad thing.

Since I’m now aware that good education is not required here, as oppose to AVS, and one can call adjectives to other people, I proceed.

First of all, you idiot, when I said I understood, I clearly was referring to the other issues Amir was annoyed about, which have been, yes extensively, debated at AVS. The NAD had issues with crossovers and bass management and they were corrected. Quality control has also been criticized, nothing new was discovered here by your guru, except the poor measurements of course. Markus767 and Richardsim at AVS had already addressed issues long before your master did.

The post you kindly linked was written before I read Amir’s response and it was only then that he further elaborated the reasons why he couldn’t recommend this AVR. And I can acknowledge those reasons because at AVS we spoke of them for nearly two years and almost ten thousand posts. There’s nothing Amir can teach us about the T758, much less his disciples that, like yourself, have never even come close to the device and yet, in an unprecedented display of stupidity, follow blindly what the Jedi says. Yes, he was called an agitator by someone, but other people spoke highly of him too. So, you can sleep tight and shut down the laser blade, the Dragon is safe.

 

[xhattan]

Agreed. I want to compare AVR’s and the best/competent performing unit with Dirac will get my money. Until then I’ll be content with my Yamaha A3050.

You may easily be looking at a tag price of at least $4000 here. The NAD M17 prepro ( AVRs apparently don’t fulfill expectations here, unless you spend $40,000) would be my choice, but the tag is $6000. Not familiar with Arcam or Emotiva, but check them out too.

 

[amirm]

Here is another thing to consider: I shut down the power amplifier more or less when testing the DAC. If the amp is running and is pulling significant current, it affects the performance of DAC as there is no isolated power supply for it. So in that sense, we are taking it easy on these products from evaluation point of view. An independent DAC and Amp wouldn't have this kind of interaction.

 

[amirm]

The post you kindly linked was written before I read Amir’s response and it was only then that he further elaborated the reasons why he couldn’t recommend this AVR.

So we should expect a correction there in your tone and style?

 

[audimus]

The self-contradictions are amusing. If the performance issues surfaced by the measurement with the device were well known before test measurements were published as claimed, there would be no need to question the method or the conclusion, or spew vitriol on the tester or the messenger, or for some to assume fetal position in the other forum in denial, it would just be further confirmation and so considered valid.

 

[JoachimStrobel]

I compare a 2channel CD played via a Parasound Dac2000 and with Dirac out of a NanoAvr - The Dac2000 wins. I do not have the money for 5channel DAC of the Parasound’s quality, so I stick with the NanAvr, but sure, for 2 channel the DAC quality is important - hence the test result and comments for the NAD are valid in my view.

 

[maty]

Agreed. I want to compare AVR’s and the best/competent performing unit with Dirac will get my money. Until then I’ll be content with my Yamaha A3050.

I had an old Yamaha RX-V2700. Very good with films and very good preamp. It never convinced, like amp, me with my music. These AVR I heard it as a preamp on a 9.1 system (with Ultracurve without the analog section mod). First with closed front loudspeakers (DIY and after with pro) and finally with DIY open baffles (marvellous with orchestral). With two passive 18" DIY subs.

[IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/NB-imagenes/andreu/16042011/sala-andreu-16042011.jpg

 

[BDWoody]

So we should expect a correction there in your tone and style?

I'll start holding my breath now...

 

[BDWoody]

Since I’m now aware that good education is not required here, as oppose to AVS, and one can call adjectives to other people, I proceed.

First of all, you idiot, when I said I understood, I clearly was referring to the other issues Amir was annoyed about, which have been, yes extensively, debated at AVS. The NAD had issues with crossovers and bass management and they were corrected. Quality control has also been criticized, nothing new was discovered here by your guru, except the poor measurements of course. Markus767 and Richardsim at AVS had already addressed issues long before your master did.

The post you kindly linked was written before I read Amir’s response and it was only then that he further elaborated the reasons why he couldn’t recommend this AVR. And I can acknowledge those reasons because at AVS we spoke of them for nearly two years and almost ten thousand posts. There’s nothing Amir can teach us about the T758, much less his disciples that, like yourself, have never even come close to the device and yet, in an unprecedented display of stupidity, follow blindly what the Jedi says. Yes, he was called an agitator by someone, but other people spoke highly of him too. So, you can sleep tight and shut down the laser blade, the Dragon is safe.

Awww... Somebody got butt-hurt.

Wow...what a display of ignorance.

Sorry about your crap receiver...maybe you should just keep whining.

 

[SimpleTheater]

You may easily be looking at a tag price of at least $4000 here. The NAD M17 prepro ( AVRs apparently don’t fulfill expectations here, unless you spend $40,000) would be my choice, but the tag is $6000. Not familiar with Arcam or Emotiva, but check them out too.

Emotiva’s XMC-2 is interesting at $2,999.

You really don’t have to spend money to fulfill expectations on this site, you simply have to meet a minimum level of performance. When a $1,700 unit fails to meet the performance level of a $9 Apple dongle (which probably has a 300% markup), defending the unit simply because it has Dirac isn’t going to cut it here. Some company was first to market with Dolby B in a tape deck, but that didn’t make it worth the cost if the rest of the unit didn’t meet minimum expectations of what could be achieved at the time.

 

[Flak]

Some company was first to market with Dolby B in a tape deck, but that didn’t make it worth the cost if the rest of the unit didn’t meet minimum expectations of what could be achieved at the time.

That's it, Dolby technology made the difference: https://positive-feedback.com/Issue16/advent.htm

 

[GrimSurfer]

Awww... Somebody got butt-hurt.

It very much looks like that.

I visited the AVS forum and reviewed @xhattan posts. Observations:

1. Posts usually (80% or more) concern what he owns (Pioneer, KEF, NAD);

2. Frequency of posts rises when new gear is obtained;

3. At least 1/3 of posts concern the NAD 758 AVR. Less on LS50s, even less on Pioneer.

From this I get the impression that @xhattan participates in forums for the purposes of validation. It would explain his sense of outrage, masking what is surely to be hurt feelings, over the review on the 758 review by @amirm

The desire for validation appears to be growing. I base this on the length of his overall participation in the AVS forum (since 2012) and the frequency of posts concerning gear of the past (roughly described in the analysis business as "content analysis").

Since AV buyers seem to follow the dictum of "buy what's hot, buy frequently" (a syndrome known as "WhatHiFi-itis" after that brilliant, deep, and technically immersive web site) my guess is the @xhattan will eventually get off of the NAD 758 rant. NAD appears to part of a brand belief structure, however, so @xhattan may be stuck on fanboism for quite some time.

As all of the posts are brand/model specific, there is some likelihood that @xhattan doesn't know/care about underlying technologies. That doesn't prevent frequent brand/trade name dropping but it does seem to limit the depth to which @xhattan is prepared to discuss strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, etc.

So @xhattan will likely prattle on at reasonable frequency when NAD, 758s, LS50s are mentioned. The focus of his posts will continue to be about achieving a modicum of validation from the group. This will continue until @xhattan finds the new religion of a new product/manufacturer.

The good news is that @xhattan is unlikely to pollute other threads, as his threshold of technical knowledge is generally low. We may, however, wish to be on guard in case butt-hurt progresses to full-blown diaper rash. Topical lotions won't work here, as the hurt/rash originates in a deeper place.