Introducing Hang Loose Convolver from Accurate Sound

[DWPress]

Mitch has neglected to mention that he recently released his HLC Host as a stand alone app for $20 on his website and is available for Win, Mac, Linux and Pi based OS. It comes packaged with HLC but if you only need a method to host plugins in your audio chain then it is a great tool to add a convolver, EQ or any possible VST3, AU, LADSPA, and LV2 plugin you want.

Here is a picture of my current graph in HLC Host:
mvMeter2 is used as Peak and VU meters to monitor the level of the stereo input. Dirac Live Bass Control is being used to apply digital room correction for two subs and XO between subs and woofers. Hang Loose Convolver is hosting the digital 3-way crossovers. And MEqualizer is being used to apply a high pass and low pass filter on one sub.

I'm on a Mac so options for a virtual sound card for input is Blackhole 2 channel (or Rogue Amoeba's Loopback) and output goes to my Okto 8ch DAC.

 

[AudioJester]

Thanks for that. Exactly the kind of output I want to try.
Do you have to manually configure it every time you turn on. I have gotten lazy where roon server auto starts each time i turn on the windows pc and use the phone app from there

 

[mitchco]

Thanks @DWPress !! @AudioJester I am not sure of DWPress's setup, but you can drop HLHost in Windows startup and if all the devices are on and present, then all you need to do is press play on your phone app.

 

[jhenderson0107]

Here is a picture of my current graph in HLC Host:

There are two stereo sources. 1) A Pi4 running rooADI acts as a Roon endpoint with feeds an RME ADI-FS 2 Pro BE. 2) A Wiim Pro+ feeding a Hosa CDL-313.

These sources drive two of four stereo inputs of a miniDSP UDIO-8. HL Host multiplexes these onto a downstream stereo processing chain. Two streamers are used to circumvent a limitation of the rooADI image, which only supports Roon endpoint use. Prior to installing rooADI, I hosted Roon, Squeezelite, Shairport other endpoints via the Dietpi OS on this Pi4. Since I run both Roon and LMS music servers, the newly-added WiimPro+ provides Squeezelite and Shairport endpoint duties.

The Bitter VST is used as oversample/VU meters to monitor the level of the stereo input and upmixed output, produced by Penteo16 Pro+. The Auro-2D upmixed outputs are sent via AES3 to UDIO-8 output pairs 1&2, feeding two miniDSP 4x10HDs. The first 4x10 drives an ATI 528NC powering a pair of Linkwitz LX-521's and the second 4x10 feeds a DIY Hypex 4 ch amp driving a pair of bi-amped Rhythm MTMs built many years ago. I've reduced the output volume of the MTMs -6 dB relative to the fronts so they add just a hint of presence during playback.

I'm using a tiny ThinkcenterPC to host HL Host which starts automatically when the PC powers up once the rack is turned on. It self-powers off automatically within a few minutes of powering off the equipment rack after detecting loss of connection to the network gateway.

I still keep two DEQ2496 in the chain prior to each 4x10HD, to monitor signal playback, tinker with equalization (prior to embedding it permanently in a VST) and other nerd activities.

 

[mitchco]

Thanks @jhenderson0107 !!

 

[DWPress]

Thanks for that. Exactly the kind of output I want to try.
Do you have to manually configure it every time you turn on. I have gotten lazy where roon server auto starts each time i turn on the windows pc and use the phone app from there

I'm on Mac but, as Mitch mentioned is possible for Windows, I have HLC as a startup item when I boot my computer so everything is ready to go once the desktop is loaded. Furthermore, you can save different graphs for HL Host so if I want to try different signal routing or plugins I can do so with a fresh graph and save it and still be able to reload the previous working graph. Here is how I was using HLC to work out my initial XOs for my speakers and had a simple 2ch FIR convolution file loaded into Sir3 (pro audio reverb plugin). You can see by my filter names in HLC what the XO positions are and if minimum or linear phase. There are two additional plugins being used on the subwoofer channels - a compressor and a gain plugin.

For simple 2ch convolution all you need is the $20 HL Host app and a free reverb plugin to host your FIR filter or bypass FIR and do PEQ with a different plugin.

 

[DWPress]

@jhenderson0107 are you able to have more than 1 input source in Windows? I'm confused how you're getting input from the Wiim and Pi4, do you have a software or hardware switch to direct the signal?

In Mac I use SoundSource to quickly change where an app is sending it's signal via hardware or a virtual cable but HLC Host can only define 1 input though there can be multiple instances of an input or output device. Actually this just gave me an idea I haven't tried yet - create an aggregate device with 2 pairs of inputs... ...something to play with.

 

[jhenderson0107]

@jhenderson0107 are you able to have more than 1 input source in Windows? I'm confused how you're getting input from the Wiim and Pi4, do you have a software or hardware switch to direct the signal?

DWPress: Yes. The miniDSP UDIO-8 features four AES3 inputs and outputs, all active concurrently. I mix the first two stereo inputs in HL Host at the top of the diagram. Of course in practice I activate just one streamer at-a-time. Sounds much better that way

 

[DWPress]

Ah, I see. When I select my Okto as an input device all 8 channels show up too.

I still have my old 4x10 in a box in case I need it some day but I like your idea of potentially adding it back into the system for more channels if I need them. I just looked it up and my Okto will do pass thru on AES output with master volume control applied which I could feed into the 4x10, cool.

 

[jhenderson0107]

...my Okto will do pass thru on AES output with master volume control applied...

The only reason I retain the RME in the system is because it implements loudness compensation. Otherwise the Wiim could completely displace it, further simplifying the system.

In this system, the amplifiers provide ~26 dB gain, which is excessive. I reduce the output volume of main/rear 4x10s by 14/20 dB to better preserve bits during DSP. However, I don't think there's any theoretical or practical "gain-match" advantage since the 4x10 implements volume control programmatically altering its CS42528 DAC outputs.

 

[SDX-LV]

Thank you for your suggestions. Yes, I am working with @PavelV at Audiopraise. Making good progress. More to come.

Sounds impressive Now follows my letter to Santa:

FYI, with what is available today: I am planning a crazy project with all-active speakers, multi subs, 7.1.4, shakers... that would be based on Motu Ao24 as a 24ch DAC with possibility to attach extra devices via either ADAT-to-something or AVB-to-something. Motu also has internal loopback for something like 48 channels - all is awesome except Dolby Atmos content is a pain to integrate and we are no longer in the 7.1 surround age.

Point is the only hard part is Atmos Decoding to Digital where my options are:

• Arvus amazing box with a paaaaainfully high price for essentially only an Atmos decoder. It still requires something to capture Dante decoded stream for loopback (plus latency with loopback is likely an issue for anything but music)
• Using a Mac with native Atmos DD+ decoding, but severe limitation in the type of supported sources and no support for lossless Atmos decoding? (MacOS is also a limitation in itself).
• Some crazy PC based Dolby decoder hack to output 7.1.4 to ASIO? No idea if it would even work and there are no mainstream Atmos music sources on a PC (unlike Apple Music on Mac).

So an ideal audiophile Atmos interface needs to have HDMI input for Apple-TV/Nvidia-Shield/X-Box/whatever and a digital loop-back of decoded content into a PC (or Mac, or Linux). Then the output part is mostly solved already, but it could be the same device (tricky). AudioPraise certainly seems respectable, but the secret is - can anyone sell a cheaper Arvus H1-D alternative that also beats Motu 24Ao on the output side?


Imagine a cheaper Arvus H1-D alternative to decode Atmos for PC-based convolver:

• A small, no-nonsense device (to preserve profit margin) that is
• Based on a common AVR chipset & software (perhaps Onkyo is willing to supply AVR bits?) to only decode 7.1.4 (12ch) Dolby Atmos and DTS-X. (note, people who build 16ch 9.1.6 system can probably just buy Arvus H1-D, full price).
• Input - only HDMI 2.1 ARC. (2 HDMIs is enough, but a few more is great to have - there are always HDMI splitters if more are needed).
• Output - 2x ADAT as the base. If possible also AES/EBU (which is the same as SPDIF). If going crazy - double rate ADAT outputs; Ethernet based output like Dante or AVB or anything)
• No automatic room calibration, no Apps, no remotes (unless for input switching), no phono inputs, no Analog outputs or inputs whatsoever.
• No volume control? (all-digital - no gain matching)
• Note, to input 12ch of ADAT a reasonable option could be "RME Digiface USB". Same Digiface USB can be used to connect extra source to stream AirPlay or Bluetooth via Toslink and output everything to something like Motu 24Ao. (all with stable PC or Mac drivers).
• Who is this for?:
  • All music content producers - people who have their powered studio monitors and audio interfaces, and would like to not only "work" with Atmos, but also use their system to listen to reference tracks from streaming services, watch a movie or a trailer in Atmos or even play a computer game in their home studio.
  • Audiophiles who use PC-based sound system with convolution & DSP tricks.
  • For the virtual surround using custom HRTFs and headtracking - virtual surround can render any number of speakers around you - just give it decoded input signals with correct angles. (See SPARTA Binauraliser as an example).
  • ...
• (Possibly) expandable with paid software upgrades to add stereo up-mixer, support for Auro 3D, Sony 360 and maybe some other DSP features.

I hope Arvus, AudioPraise, or anyone else makes this - it is unfortunate that a basic fat AVR with Atmos HDMI, lots of amps, DACs and features is 3x cheaper than any other Atmos HDMI decoder. Note that hardware HDMI decoder is necessary even if software decoders would appear, because only HDMI hardware box can decode sound from XBox, Blu-Ray player, Apple-TV or other Atmos sources.

 

[AudioJester]

Hi guys, so I got this kind of working on my Windows pc - Roon (2 channel) - HLH/HLC (convolution filter with 6 channel output) - Okto8.

One issue is the Okto dac does not have a WDM driver, so use ASIO4ALL or route through VB Audio Matrix (very cool software!) with the Okto ASIO output.

Whatever config I use, max buffers, different Master Clock - every 1min and 2secs I get a transient volume decrease which I can see in HLC meters. There is no stuttering and its not clipping. Stream is fine in Matrix meters.

I was thinking of trying another multichannel VST convolver in HLH. Any suggestions?

 

[DWPress]

Strange behavior for sure @AudioJester. The only other multichannel VST I know of is MCFX which looks like it's actually been updated recently and could still be used in Hang Loose Host app.

What sample rate are your filters and how old is your Windows machine/how much RAM? I'm running 8 channels with filters at 24/96kHz and my old M1 Mac mini with 8GB RAM struggled with things especially if I was doing other things with the machine. Max buffers can be hard on the machine as well, have you tried with just 512 or 1024?

Hopefully @mitchco will reply as well, you can always email him directly he's good at responding quickly but not always here on ASR. Perhaps an older version of HLC could work better for you.

 

[AudioJester]

Strange behavior for sure @AudioJester. The only other multichannel VST I know of is MCFX which looks like it's actually been updated recently and could still be used in Hang Loose Host app.

What sample rate are your filters and how old is your Windows machine/how much RAM? I'm running 8 channels with filters at 24/96kHz and my old M1 Mac mini with 8GB RAM struggled with things especially if I was doing other things with the machine. Max buffers can be hard on the machine as well, have you tried with just 512 or 1024?

Hopefully @mitchco will reply as well, you can always email him directly he's good at responding quickly but not always here on ASR. Perhaps an older version of HLC could work better for you.

Thanks, yeah tried different filters, using 48kHz, tried different buffer lengths as well. When i run convolution in Roon to HLHost (6 in / 6 out) no problem. One of those gremlins!

Yeah, support from Mitcho is fantastic. He is on a vacation at the moment so dont want to disturb him till he returns. Will have a look at mcfx, thx!

 

[DWPress]

When i run convolution in Roon to HLHost (6 in / 6 out) no problem.

You're using the same 2ch impulse in Roon and HLC? What app did you generate your filters with? Are you using Sample Rate Conversion in Roon?

Because of my old days of using a miniDSP 4x10 a lot of my filters are still 24/96 so I use Roon to make sure everything is upsampled before it hits my XO and everything else in HL Host (which is also 24/96 in all used plugins). Not sure if it matters much but one more thing to try.

 

[Keith_W]

I had a similar experience when I tried HLC. At the time, VB-Matrix had not yet been released, and I used VB-Audio's virtual cable to connect JRiver's ASIO output to HLC's ASIO input. I don't know why HLC could not accept JRiver's ASIO output natively. HLC's instruction manual recommended VB-Audio. Well, VB-Audio's virtual cable resulted in SEVERE packet loss. I could not play any music at all at 192kHz. I would watch the VB's control panel and see the packet loss accumulate, and then I would hear a brief 1/10 second burst of music before it stopped again. Dropping the sample rate to 44.1kHz produced about a minute of music, before stuttering occurred, then after 2-3 minutes the music would stop altogether.

Check out the push/pull loss in VB-Cable! This was what was causing my issues.

I would point my finger at the virtual cable you are using. Cables make a difference, you know I suggest you try another cable.

 

[AudioJester]

I had a similar experience when I tried HLC. At the time, VB-Matrix had not yet been released, and I used VB-Audio's virtual cable to connect JRiver's ASIO output to HLC's ASIO input. I don't know why HLC could not accept JRiver's ASIO output natively. HLC's instruction manual recommended VB-Audio. Well, VB-Audio's virtual cable resulted in SEVERE packet loss. I could not play any music at all at 192kHz. I would watch the VB's control panel and see the packet loss accumulate, and then I would hear a brief 1/10 second burst of music before it stopped again. Dropping the sample rate to 44.1kHz produced about a minute of music, before stuttering occurred, then after 2-3 minutes the music would stop altogeth

Check out the push/pull loss in VB-Cable! This was what was causing my issues.

I would point my finger at the virtual cable you are using. Cables make a difference, you know I suggest you try another cable.

Good point.
I did use VB audio cable as an input to HLHost, I presume Matrix is using same protocol as the control panel is the same as cable. For some strange reason LoopBeAudio does not play nice with Roon.
Although the problem only occurs when i use HLC, same convolution filters in Roon through HLHost and no problem.

You're using the same 2ch impulse in Roon and HLC? What app did you generate your filters with? Are you using Sample Rate Conversion in Roon?

Yeah, generated from Audiolense - goes to Okto dac with 6 outputs, 3 way actives. All DSP, sample rate conversion off in Roon when using HLC.

 

[DWPress]

Cables make a difference, you know I suggest you try another cable.

Virtual cables sure do!

I have an issue in my chain where sometimes Roon goes silent and the fix is to switch from Loopback to Blackhole (both Mac virtual cables) within HLC input/output prefs. I haven't pinned down if it's because of Roon, SoundSource app (sound manager for apps & system) or within HLC Host. Gremlins abound in the digital realm.

 

[AudioJester]

I just had a doh! moment.
I have been trying xtalk-shaper in HLHost and that is causing the transient volume loss. Probably because I only have it in demo mode - will confirm with Thierry. It makes an impressive difference though.

So taking xtalk shaper out I have it all working now! VB Audio Matrix is awesome. I have also configured setups where I can go Roon - HLHost - HQPlayer. Or use HLC.

Now, what plugins to try? I want to add some harmonic distortion.

 

[Keith_W]

Now, what plugins to try? I want to add some harmonic distortion.

PKHarmonic by our own @pkane. You can specify which harmonics to add, and how much.

Exciter plugins work the same way (adding harmonics). Some exciters allow you to specify which freqs to add the harmonics to. PKHarmonic does not do that. Google "exciter VST plugin", there are literally dozens.

Pultec Punch VST. This adds a bass boost followed by a cut, the effect is to make bass seem more punchy.