Denon AVRs vs Integrated stereo Amplifiers for 2 channel music

[Golf]

I don’t condemn »Made in China« as such. But since there are brands like Denon, assembling their devices from a certain price level upwards not in China but in Japan, I have problems ignoring that.

 

[DMill]

What do you mean?

I don’t condemn »Made in China« as such. But since there are brands like Denon, assembling their devices from a certain price level upwards not in China but in Japan, I have problems ignoring that.

 

[GXAlan]

I don’t condemn »Made in China« as such. But since there are brands like Denon, assembling their devices from a certain price level upwards not in China but in Japan, I have problems ignoring that.

Agree.
$1400 gets you a factory refurb Model 40n that’s made in Japan.

 

[Chrispy]

Could you actually imaging why?

They'd be a lot more attractive if they had modern digital connections and bass management.

 

[Chrispy]

The Denon 3700 is made in Vietnam, not China. Being made in Japan isn't particularly special.

 

[Chrispy]

We are really looking at a renaissance of AVRs. The Anthem MRX520 was a premium AVR in its era and most AVRs a few years back had trouble with 4 ohm speakers unless it was a formal THX Ultra certification.

The Arcam SA30 is excellent for a *slim* integrated amp. But if you look at it, it’s built like an AVR…

View attachment 350384

The predecessor SR250 was an AVR, but at least you had the benefit of bitstream decoding and a ton of HDMI inputs.

View attachment 350385

Most of the offerings of 2ch integrated amps aren't particularly special in build/guts.

 

[antcollinet]

No problem at all. What about weight? One is 17.6 kg (doing 2 channels), the other one 12.5 kg (doing 9 channels).

I can put a brick in an amp - doesn't make it sound better.

 

[Golf]

I can put a brick in an amp

Sure you can. But why would you do that?

 

[voodooless]

Sure you can. But why would you do that?

To impress you…

 

[Dumdum]

Short answer is no. You will always get better performance upgrading your speakers. I have the SR250 which was measured at Stereophile and has a similar amplifier section but with an older digital front end (more powerful since it had Dolby Volume and TrueHD/DTS). They are both nice options.

Have you already gotten a UMIK test microphone and the Audyssey iOS app? You can use homebrew Ratbuddysey software to fine tune target curve. MultEQ-X is another option if you want to replicate the control of Dirac with your x3700.

MultEQ X doesn’t replicate Dirac and the algorithms and fir, for me I get more control with the Dsp in my car than MultEQ X gives me

 

[antcollinet]

Sure you can. But why would you do that?

To impress you…

The "brick" in many examples of "high end" "expensive" gear is an oversized toroidal transformer. But the big toroidal transformer based power supply is not inherently better than the SMPS designs used in smaller, lighter, more sensibly priced gear.

The main benefit for the manufacturer is often the weight added which seems to impress a certain breed of audiophile.

 

[Golf]

The "brick" in many examples of "high end" "expensive" gear is an oversized toroidal transformer.

Uhm – you are not going to declare Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE as "high end" "expensive" gear, do you?

 

[antcollinet]

Uhm – you are not going to declare Denon’s AVR-X3800H and PMA-1700NE as "high end" "expensive" gear, do you?

Now we're into the "all mackerel are fish, but not all fish are mackerel territory.

 

[Vacceo]

I can put a brick in an amp - doesn't make it sound better.

Well, add a box of fans. You're increasing weight, but at least fans cool off the chips.

 

[CK.]

Well, you are in the right place to get those questions answered.

Long story short: people hear differences because they want, very much, to hear differences. And it so happens that our perception when it comes to sound is very easily affected by different biases. And the effect is not subtle, it can be "night and day".

That is a hard pill to swallow given the vast amount of forum posts, reviewers and youtubers but then again there are also many that support your view. It is a very polarizing subject and I hope that someday I will able to experience all this and find out for myself without breaking the bank.

 

[voodooless]

Well, add a box of fans. You're increasing weight, but at least fans cool off the chips.

There are better ways to add weight and get cooling: old fashioned massive heatsinks. You’ll have to add a lot of fans to seriously affect weight And then best to not connect most of them due to noise

 

[CK.]

I have had Accuphase, McIntosh, Marantz Reference SA-10/PM-10, Topping, etc. Just keep your upgrade budget in the bank and make big moves each time with speakers.



What we don’t see on the measurements is the subjective sense of resolution or compression.

Phase matters very little, but particularly in multichannel setups, it may make a difference in some conditions.

Zero Phase In Studio Monitors

This Voice Coil’s Spotlight, written by Vance Dickason with commentary from Floyd Toole, Wolfgang Klippel, Andrew Jones, and James Croft, focuses on Zero Phase in Studio Monitors. As Dickason explains, "the implication of using FIR filters to zero out the phase of a loudspeaker to improve its...

audioxpress.com

Linearity is hinted at with 86 and 96 dB measurements here along with distortion. But the spin here is just as 76 dB.

Then, there is multitone testing for speakers.

Thanks, that's interesting to know.
It just so happens that a few weeks ago I bough Tool's book "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms" and hopefully this will give me a bit more insight as to what you are saying.

 

[Vacceo]

There are better ways to add weight and get cooling: old fashioned massive heatsinks. You’ll have to add a lot of fans to seriously affect weight And then best to not connect most of them due to noise

It's a shame I cannot easily mod my amps with watercooling plates like I did with my PC.

 

[CK.]

Largely. But noise at the 1-5W range can also make a difference.

Load dependency also makes a difference.



Economies of scale in my opinion unless you have some sort of complex load where the SA30 might do better.



You can see some measurements between something like a Marantz Model 40 or Model 30 versus a similarly priced AVR from Marantz. You can also see the wide variability in performance of “an AVR.” The X3700H is an unusually good AVR.

Truth is the R3 does dip down to 3 ohms but primarily in the bass region. Having a sub I think covers this part. The denon is not rating at 4 ohms although amir tested this with good results. All I know is that the arcam is rated to 4 ohms but not sure how much impact will this have. Indeed we cannot generalise this question, we are comparing specificaly the denon 3700h.

 

[CK.]

I've compared my 2ch separates to my avrs "for music" and find the feature set of the avrs to be more useful, particularly sub integration (and the separates had twice the amp power). The Arcam doesn't provide for a sub particularly. I'd stick to the avr, never understood all the fascination with 2ch integrated amps for the most part....

Indeed, the arcam does have dirac live though. But apart form feature set, did you notice a big audible improvement?