Live sound system w/ $7K?

[juliangst]

My vote would also go towards the Genelec S360 for high SPL.
If you really want deep sub bass at 110+ dB you need to go big or use a subwoofer. No bookshelf type speaker can handle <30Hz at those SPLs. The S360 will be perfect for anything above sub bass at those levels

 

[sarumbear]

No 126 db from the actual thing I was taking about

https://www.tectonicaudiolabs.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/PL-11-Data-Sheet_WSG_23OCT18.pdf

I replied to your post that has the following link.

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

 

[Timcognito]

I replied to post that has the following link.

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

Philharmonic BMR Bookshelf Speaker Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

I understand but up a few threads I referenced a DMR PA producs. So NP you more know than I in this field.
This one is lighter 23 lbs and probably better

https://tectonicproaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DML500-Measurement-Data.docx

 

[sarumbear]

I understand but up a few threads I referenced a PA DMR PA products. So NP you more than I in this field.
This one is lighter 23 lbs and probably better

https://tectonicproaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/DML500-Measurement-Data.docx

I don’t know that product.

 

[Elitzur–Vaidman]

Thanks, everyone! This is very helpful.

Seems the consensus is my thinking on miniaturizing is a little ... optimistic.

I have a few questions, first about how you set up your big Yamahas. Do you put them up on stands? Or up on a table?
// I often put them directly on the floor, or lift them up a couple feet with whatever is around. Depends on the situation. They sound great anywhere tbh.

This may be a dumb question: Do you send stereo to your Yamahas, or do they both get the same (mono) signal?
// Stereo. Using a basic 2 channel audio interface at 96khz, or direct line-out.

Would you consider passive mains? This way the amplifier weight would be in your equipment rack instead of in your speakers, which might make a worthwhile difference in portability.
// Would really rather not, but you make a good point. I guess what was appealing about active & e.g. the Phantom is that things are centralized & not broken out. That's really just about transport efficiency though. I actually don't even use an equipment rack, just a lil controller & laptop.

What is the lowest note you play?
// Whatever lowest note the speakers are capable of . Typically low 30s. But if those Phantoms go down to 16Hz, I'll definitely be rewriting some work!

Do you need the speakers to function as YOUR monitors as well as the FOH system, or do you have a separate monitor system?
// Yes, FOH & my monitors. Ideally the sound fills the room, & since I'm using no mics etc feedback isn't an issue for me.

What are the size constraints imposed by either you or your vehicle, and what is the weight limit imposed by your back?
Do you use a dolly or something similar for load-in/load-out, or do you hand-carry everything?
// I'm totally capable of moving these things, it's simply just that I'd rather not if there are other options. Just trying to streamline a bit if there's a possibility there.

@Timcognito Ah yes, forgot about those! Might do actually. Do you have experience with these? Anyone else?

@Slayer That looks appealing, wonder how I overlooked that (so many Gen models!)

@sarumbear Err... different genres. Ranges from soft piano music to experimental drone. Some soundtrack kind of work. And so on. I often write with sine waves directly so it's very easy to tune up or down dependent on loudspeaker capabilities.

@GXAlan I've always been curious about those, as well as the JBL PRX column arrays recommended. Can't remember why I opted for traditional PA boxes over the column array options. Was looking into the RCF EVOX as well iirc. The JBL PRX is very appealing

Any objections to a 3-piece setup when the situation requires? The JBL EON ONE MK2 is only 42.5lbs (19.3kg). It rolls off a few Hz higher than your Yamahas, but you could get a pair of the JBLs and still have $4,500 left in your budget for an independent subwoofer. Also, they can be battery-powered. If you don't care about that, I'd just get the PRX ONE and use some of the remaining $3,800 in your budget for a subwoofer.

 

[Timcognito]

I don’t know that product.

More about speakers so you are probably better at advice. I just happen to be reading up on DMLs and may build one. I am a ME though, so I'm getting there.

 

[sarumbear]

Perhaps! I think it was also reading a lot of forum reviews that argued point source was still better? I'm certainly keen for something ... different. If it sounds good of course.

Try it yourself but why would two point sources and a phantom centre image can be better when the audience sitting position is not defined?

Think of it that way: every large live event use a line array.

 

[LTig]

Try it yourself but why would two point sources and a phantom centre image can be better when the audience sitting position is not defined?

Yep.

Think of it that way: every large live event use a line array.

That has another reason: SPL does not fall by 6 dB per doubling of distance but (optimal) by 3 dB only.

 

[peniku8]

Maybe @peniku8 can help out here.

I'd echo some other replies here and recommend something of the column type. I've mixed two shows on systems like that and they were not terrible (one on a HK and one on a Bose). Ease of setup sure is great with these and wide directivity might be a good thing here (which was a PITA for me because of feedback issues from 3-4 vocal mics on stage). They don't go terribly loud and neither do they have bone crushing bass (and also not deliver the low 30s mentioned), but if op was happy with the Yamahas before and now even considers HiFi speakers, crazy SPL capabilities are probably not needed here, which also makes the 7k budget work.
Don't use speakers for PA use that are not intended for PA use.

 

[Monos]

I'd echo some other replies here and recommend something of the column type. I've mixed two shows on systems like that and they were not terrible (one on a HK and one on a Bose). Ease of setup sure is great with these and wide directivity might be a good thing here (which was a PITA for me because of feedback issues from 3-4 vocal mics on stage). They don't go terribly loud and neither do they have bone crushing bass (and also not deliver the low 30s mentioned), but if op was happy with the Yamahas before and now even considers HiFi speakers, crazy SPL capabilities are probably not needed here, which also makes the 7k budget work.
Don't use speakers for PA use that are not intended for PA use.

Was there much of a difference between the Bose & HK? I guess what concerns me is the "not terrible" description. Been looking for descriptions like "Stellar clarity & loud enough" or some such. I guess I just need to demo & decide for myself.

There seems to be maybe some slight disagreement on using monitors for PA —some say absolutely not, while a couple responses have recommended the Genelec S360. (likewise, why not JBL 708p?). Bear in mind that I'm not playing enormous venues usually, more often like small concert situations, sometimes even sit-down, so point-source can actually work imo. That's not to say it needs to. Again, maybe I just need to find a way to demo.

I realize that asking for near sub-bass in a hand-held size at ~110db+ levels is asking if unicorns exist. Still, thanks for unicorn hunting w/ me. But also some reviews of e.g. Devialet seem to be saying that they do exist. But the proprietary connectivity issues mentioned do sound like a dealbreaker.

Maybe a better way of phrasing the question is whether or not there are options that close the gap between monitors & PA, or if there are somewhat smaller PAs w hi-fidelity out there. It's not just about lugging them around, but also storing them when not in use at home.

 

[peniku8]

Was there much of a difference between the Bose & HK? I guess what concerns me is the "not terrible" description. Been looking for descriptions like "Stellar clarity & loud enough" or some such. I guess I just need to demo & decide for myself.

There seems to be maybe some slight disagreement on using monitors for PA —some say absolutely not, while a couple responses have recommended the Genelec S360. (likewise, why not JBL 708p?). Bear in mind that I'm not playing enormous venues usually, more often like small concert situations, sometimes even sit-down, so point-source can actually work imo. That's not to say it needs to. Again, maybe I just need to find a way to demo.

I realize that asking for near sub-bass in a hand-held size at ~110db+ levels is asking if unicorns exist. Still, thanks for unicorn hunting w/ me. But also some reviews of e.g. Devialet seem to be saying that they do exist. But the proprietary connectivity issues mentioned do sound like a dealbreaker.

Maybe a better way of phrasing the question is whether or not there are options that close the gap between monitors & PA, or if there are somewhat smaller PAs w hi-fidelity out there. It's not just about lugging them around, but also storing them when not in use at home.

A bit of context: I was tasked to work with the systems in an outdoor setting for a live band. For the HK system, FOH was 20 meters from the PA. They had 4 double 12" or double 10s I don't remember, but I was quite surprised how well it kept up with the difficult task (that PA isn't meant to do rock band gigs outdoors). My own PA is L-acoustics, which is obviously another ballpark and my standards/expectations are very high, so if I say 'not terrible' that's a slight exaggeration; if I think the system would be bad for your use-case, I wouldn't recommend it. dBtechnologies also makes a similar system, might be worth paying the local retailer a visit to just compare.
And please don't abuse the poor Genelecs - especially not without a sub.

 

[dannut]

• building an ideal portable sound system with a $7K budget.
• electronic musician/composer who tours a lot (US, smaller venues usually)
• I'm using 2 Yamaha DZR315 (41,6kg!) & love them, but I simply can't haul these things around the country anymore. I've been considering alternatives (all active) with a much smaller footprint but w/o sacrificing too much volume. I often put them directly on the floor, or lift them up a couple feet with whatever is around.
• I really like the idea of a minimal setup, setting down a couple of smart monitors that sound great & yet can compete with loud pa systems.
• If anyone has PA suggestions, that's fine too, (column arrays?). But really hoping for something smaller.

I took the liberty of condensing your needs to couple bullet points, hope You don't mind. Please add to it if there's something missing.

I would start by not looking at 'products' but only at needs. Outdoor/indoor PA is acoustically completely different than small room acoustics, so seemingly intuitive solutions don't work for PA work.

You will need to keep couple things in mind - no matter the final boxes you buy:

• All audience members needs to be covered somewhat evenly. Side to side and front to back.
  • laying speakers on the floor are detrimental - front row gets blasted with sound while at the back people struggle to understand music/words.
• For 'stereo' to work in PA, all audience members need to be in the coverage angle of both speakers AND simultaneously be equidistant from both speakers. (yes, there is a problem)
• 2 separated monopole bass sources are detrimental in an outside environment. Depending on wavelength and separation, you get constructive and destructive interference, that spans a relatively large area (power walleys and power alleys). Some audience members don't experience any bass at all!
• In PA usually main speakers are band limited - there is not much going on below 70-80Hz. Your Yamahas are an exception. So are couple outher small builders speakers, who decide to use a high-excursion LF transducer in them. Not comparable to a typical 'workhorse' speaker (E.g. QSC K12), that is meant to be used with a subwoofer. If you look at the previous bullet point, there is a good reason for that.

Keeping those things in mind and looking at your needs, you have couple options:

• Get one of those column speakers peviously recommended.
  • plusses: wide coverage horizontally, narrow vertically. This means your front-to-back volume is more even and you can cover a wider AND deeper audience with a single speaker.
  • minuses: tall; limited volume
• OR get nice, tall stands with a wide base. E.g. K&M 21472 or similar. That way your main speaker is above the height of your front row audience (no to earbleed!) AND your last row is on-axis with your speaker, so they can enjoy the venue too.
  • If you like your DZR315, but they ARE needlessly heavy for single person schlepping, get something similar. A DZR12 is 'only' 21kg, but with the same 'family' long-excursion woofer. Even DZR10 could be okay, if size is an issue.
  • If a single 90deg speaker can cover your venue horizontally, great! If not, divide your audience in half and try to cover both sides of the audience with 2 speakers, pointing both of them at the centerline of the designated area.
  • If you would like to eliminate the '2-speaker-bass-problem-outdoors', you could colocate your 2 speakers side-by-side and fire them at 90deg angle (in case of DZR12) OR fire them inward, so you cover the whole audience horizontally. Different drawbacks wrt to the previous bullet point.

 

[Monos]

A bit of context: I was tasked to work with the systems in an outdoor setting for a live band. For the HK system, FOH was 20 meters from the PA. They had 4 double 12" or double 10s I don't remember, but I was quite surprised how well it kept up with the difficult task (that PA isn't meant to do rock band gigs outdoors). My own PA is L-acoustics, which is obviously another ballpark and my standards/expectations are very high, so if I say 'not terrible' that's a slight exaggeration; if I think the system would be bad for your use-case, I wouldn't recommend it. dBtechnologies also makes a similar system, might be worth paying the local retailer a visit to just compare.
And please don't abuse the poor Genelecs - especially not without a sub.

The dB column PA sounds intriguing w/ the double 12", & always been curious about dB (you're referencing the ES 1203?). I don't see a lot of reviews, & wondering if it's a bit long in the tooth?

I took the liberty of condensing your needs to couple bullet points, hope You don't mind. Please add to it if there's something missing.

I would start by not looking at 'products' but only at needs. Outdoor/indoor PA is acoustically completely different than small room acoustics, so seemingly intuitive solutions don't work for PA work.

You will need to keep couple things in mind - no matter the final boxes you buy:

• All audience members needs to be covered somewhat evenly. Side to side and front to back.
  • laying speakers on the floor are detrimental - front row gets blasted with sound while at the back people struggle to understand music/words.
• For 'stereo' to work in PA, all audience members need to be in the coverage angle of both speakers AND simultaneously be equidistant from both speakers. (yes, there is a problem)
• 2 separated monopole bass sources are detrimental in an outside environment. Depending on wavelength and separation, you get constructive and destructive interference, that spans a relatively large area (power walleys and power alleys). Some audience members don't experience any bass at all!
• In PA usually main speakers are band limited - there is not much going on below 70-80Hz. Your Yamahas are an exception. So are couple outher small builders speakers, who decide to use a high-excursion LF transducer in them. Not comparable to a typical 'workhorse' speaker (E.g. QSC K12), that is meant to be used with a subwoofer. If you look at the previous bullet point, there is a good reason for that.

Keeping those things in mind and looking at your needs, you have couple options:

• Get one of those column speakers peviously recommended.
  • plusses: wide coverage horizontally, narrow vertically. This means your front-to-back volume is more even and you can cover a wider AND deeper audience with a single speaker.
  • minuses: tall; limited volume
• OR get nice, tall stands with a wide base. E.g. K&M 21472 or similar. That way your main speaker is above the height of your front row audience (no to earbleed!) AND your last row is on-axis with your speaker, so they can enjoy the venue too.
  • If you like your DZR315, but they ARE needlessly heavy for single person schlepping, get something similar. A DZR12 is 'only' 21kg, but with the same 'family' long-excursion woofer. Even DZR10 could be okay, if size is an issue.
  • If a single 90deg speaker can cover your venue horizontally, great! If not, divide your audience in half and try to cover both sides of the audience with 2 speakers, pointing both of them at the centerline of the designated area.
  • If you would like to eliminate the '2-speaker-bass-problem-outdoors', you could colocate your 2 speakers side-by-side and fire them at 90deg angle (in case of DZR12) OR fire them inward, so you cover the whole audience horizontally. Different drawbacks wrt to the previous bullet point.

This is helpful, thanks. In retrospect the DZR12's would've probably sufficed, but I liked the idea of a 3-way & not needing a sub.

I'll probably end up with a pair of columns... but which?! HK Polar 12? JBL PRX 1? EV 50? dB1203? RCF Evox 12?

Might just stick with what I have tho, maybe a little heavy lifting is acceptable trade-off for the sound quality. Unless the columns really do compete.

 

[AwesomeSauce2015]

@dannut said some pretty good points.
You need to elevate the main speakers above head height, or else the front row will get blasted.
If you want deep bass, then you need a subwoofer. The main reason for this is that most PA speaker woofers are designed to play up to around 1500hz, or about 500hz in the case of a 3 way design. Woofers that can play that high just aren't capable of high output deep bass, since they need to be light weight (among other things).

Also, while column arrays are neat, I generally don't see them working that well for high-output events in decent size spaces. You need a horn and compression driver tweeter to cover a crowd.

For portability, active speakers are the way to go. Personally, I recommend something along the lines of the JBL PRX 910/912 / QSC K12/K10 and a subwoofer or two. You may be able to put the sub(s) on wheels, and the JBLs have DSP you can control with an iPad to set up the crossover and to correct for any obnoxious room effects.

If speaker weight is a big concern, I believe that the QSC K12s have plastic enclosures and so will be lighter than wood speakers with an equivalent size woofer, however, if you are willing to get a subwoofer, then you could go with the QSC K8s, which are even lighter. My only issue with the QSCs is that they don't have as nice a DSP setup as the JBLs, and so tuning them would require an external EQ or DSP unit.

(Prices from Sweetwater . com on 6-14-2023)
2x PRX 908 will run $850 each
2x PRX 918 (subs) will run $1500 each, and caster sets are available for $150.
So the total for speakers is $4700. This leaves you with $2300 for sales tax, cables, a mixer, and any stands / accessories you need.

Since the PRX 908 are 8 inch speakers, they should be easier to maneuver around than 12" or 3-way speakers (They weigh in at only 30 lbs vs the 90 lbs of your current speakers). The subs (appear to) have a pole mount so you can put the speakers on top of them (though separating the bass sources is not always a good thing, due to interference issues).

However, if you routinely find yourself pushing your sound system to the limit, I would recommend stepping up to the SRX 812p, as it has a more robust tweeter and can get significantly louder. It is heavier though at 58 lbs, but still lighter than your Yamahas. The SRX 812P is priced at $1610 each, so still in budget.

 

[peniku8]

The dB column PA sounds intriguing w/ the double 12", & always been curious about dB (you're referencing the ES 1203?). I don't see a lot of reviews, & wondering if it's a bit long in the tooth?

This is helpful, thanks. In retrospect the DZR12's would've probably sufficed, but I liked the idea of a 3-way & not needing a sub.

I'll probably end up with a pair of columns... but which?! HK Polar 12? JBL PRX 1? EV 50? dB1203? RCF Evox 12?

Might just stick with what I have tho, maybe a little heavy lifting is acceptable trade-off for the sound quality. Unless the columns really do compete.

Yea the one I saw was the es1203, the reviews on Thomann were pretty good, but since people usually upgrade and then review instead of looking back, most PA reviews will be rather positive, so I'm not sure if it says much. Especially when I think about cable reviews on Thomann.

The HK system I worked with once consisted of 4xElements E110 Sub and 6x Elements E835 Top (5000€ without amps) but it being a passive system has a few massive drawbacks (you need to bring extra amps, but the biggest issue is that it'll waste a lot of potential sound quality unless you have a dedicated dsp amp with a preset for these speakers; idk if that exists for the HK system).

The db 2x12" subs might be a bit heavy if you want to reduce weight, but at least you don't have to lift them onto a pole.

A bit unrelated I think, if you do small indoor gigs, but very good point by @dannut

2 separated monopole bass sources are detrimental in an outside environment. Depending on wavelength and separation, you get constructive and destructive interference, that spans a relatively large area (power walleys and power alleys). Some audience members don't experience any bass at all!

This is a massive oversight imo since you almost always see a 2.2 setup with the tops on poles on the subs. Sure it's very convenient to not bring stands and it looks much better, but the resulting lobing is terrible. Therefore it's a great idea to bring 4 subs instead of 2; put your speakers on two and then place two more subs in the center between the PA, a bit forward if possible. You can run all off the same amp channel in that setup and get good forward directivity.

Just to illustrate, here is outdoors bass distribution averaged over 32-63Hz in a setup with just the two outside subs enabled:

And now enable the two center subs that are a meter forward, in front of the stage, no delays, no gain differences:

Something to keep in mind if you do bigger gigs at some point; being able to expand the system with more subs is a good thing.

I recommended the column systems first and foremost because of the ease of setup. The smaller system we have is two EV speakers on top of two high power 12" subs, which performs pretty well (I've done an indoors live band (pop punk) and it held up nicely). I like having the tops a bit high if the crowd is close to the PA, that nobody'd ear is right next to the speaker. That saves their ears and also leaves some SPL for the rest of the audience like the other two before me already mentioned

 

[ocinn]

God this thread is absolutely hilarious as someone who works in live sound. The Genelec recommendation had me cracking up at my desk.

@dannut pretty much-covered everything.

I would DZR10 + DXS18XLF. Get tall stands, and get a couple of these. Speakers should be high up and tilted down towards the crowd. You can use a 8" or 10" even when crossing to a subwoofer.

This keeps the majority of the crowd more aligned to the vertical axis of the speaker, reduces the amount of energy shot at the ceiling and back wall, and the fact that the average distance of the audience to the speaker is more consistent means people in the front row won't be going deaf and the people in the back would be able to hear you.

QSC and JBL have been completely outclassed by Yamaha and EV. If you feel like you want to extend the budget, the Martin CDDLive system is the next click-up.

Whatever you do, do not try to buy consumer speakers (and yes that includes those "column arrays") and try to get them to work in a PA environment.

 

[sarumbear]

I recommended the column systems first and foremost because of the ease of setup. The smaller system we have is two EV speakers on top of two high power 12" subs, …

The OP is looking for speakers lighter than his current set. Will your suggestion be lighter?

…I struggle to find an acceptable PA not only sonically, but also that doesn't break my back & vehicle. Currently I'm using 2 Yamaha DZR315 & love them, but I simply can't haul these things around the country anymore. I've been considering alternatives (all active) with a much smaller footprint but w/o sacrificing too much volume.

 

[ocinn]

This is a massive oversight imo since you almost always see a 2.2 setup with the tops on poles on the subs. Sure it's very convenient to not bring stands and it looks much better, but the resulting lobing is terrible.

Lol, this is so infuriating for me when I see it. Soundvision/Ease Focus/Arraycalc are all FREE! it boggles my mind more people do not take 10min to play around in there and see what works and what doesn't.

Therefore it's a great idea to bring 4 subs instead of 2; put your speakers on two and then place two more subs in the center between the PA, a bit forward if possible. You can run all off the same amp channel in that setup and get good forward directivity.

How far forward they are is something you really need to simulate for, as inches translate into pretty huge changes in the beam steering effect. But it basically needs to be done, as no one in their right mind is going to place 4 subs 1/4 wavelength center-to-center apart (2.7-3.5ft) and have that dictate their max stage width (~10.5ft)

 

[ocinn]

The OP is looking for speakers lighter than his current set. Will your suggestion be lighter?

Is it easier to:

A) Put two 30lb speakers on top of a 100lb subwoofer (on wheels) and push it into the venue, and easily place the speakers onto poles and crank them up with no effort

or

B) Have to carry two 95lb huge speakers from the car into the venue, lift them onto a pole stand, and do a squat underneath them to raise the poles (crank up-poles for speakers that heavy are rare, expensive, and not very safe), fail, and ask for help, and then at the end of the night make tired venue employees help you lift them off.

That's the point we are making. You can get far better performance than the DZR315s by "dividing" the duties to DZR10 + DXS18XLF + affordable crank stands + a tilt adapter and its much easier to manage setup and strike.

 

[Duke]

God this thread is absolutely hilarious as someone who works in live sound. The Genelec recommendation had me cracking up at my desk.

@dannut pretty much-covered everything.

I would DZR10 + DXS18XLF. Get tall stands, and get a couple of these. Speakers should be high up and tilted down towards the crowd. You can use a 8" or 10" even when crossing to a subwoofer.

This keeps the majority of the crowd more aligned to the vertical axis of the speaker, reduces the amount of energy shot at the ceiling and back wall, and the fact that the average distance of the audience to the speaker is more consistent means people in the front row won't be going deaf and the people in the back would be able to hear you.

QSC and JBL have been completely outclassed by Yamaha and EV. If you feel like you want to extend the budget, the Martin CDDLive system is the next click-up.

Whatever you do, do not try to buy consumer speakers (and yes that includes those "column arrays") and try to get them to work in a PA environment.

What frequency ballpark would you recommend for crossing over the mains to the central sub (or sub cluster)? Seems to me there is likely to be a "multi-leafed clover" net radiation pattern at the bottom end of the horizontally-spaced mains. If so, how do you minimize that?