Live sound system w/ $7K?

[sarumbear]

Is it easier to:

A) Put two 30lb speakers on top of a 100lb subwoofer (on wheels) and push it into the venue, and easily place the speakers onto poles and crank them up with no effort

or

B) Have to carry two 95lb huge speakers from the car into the venue, lift them onto a pole stand, and do a squat underneath them to raise the poles (crank up-poles for speakers that heavy are rare, expensive, and not very safe), fail, and ask for help, and then at the end of the night make tired venue employees help you lift them off.

That's the point we are making. You can get far better performance than the DZR315s by "dividing" the duties to DZR10 + DXS18XLF + affordable crank stands + a tilt adapter and its much easier to manage setup and strike.

Neither is relevant when the OP wants lighter speakers. Besides, those subwoofers on wheels will eventually have to be lifted to a vehicle and possibly will require a minivan.

There are lighter solutions, which were suggested by me and others. Performance of the equipment should match the use case. Does the OP needs 137dBSPL capacity of the DZR10 for instance?

 

[ocinn]

Neither is relevant when the OP wants lighter speakers. Besides, those subwoofers on wheels will eventually have to be lifted to a vehicle and possibly will require a minivan.

The total weight of my proposed setup is lighter. The only thing that's close is the sub is 107lbs, something which you need to pick up once. Vs 2x 95lb speakers (his current) which you need to pick up, carry, and then lift 7ft in the air, over your head to put on a stand. I'd be happy to pick up 13 lbs more to save myself all the hassle.

Also to make my point even more firm, 2x DZR10 + 1x DXS18XLF = 23,022 in^2 of space taken up. His current setup of 2x DZR315 takes up 31,261.68 in^2. That's 27% smaller.

So not only is my setup lighter and far easier to transport and setup/strike, as well as being much higher performing, its also SMALLER and takes up less room in the car. (also much easier to find room for two tiny mid/his in a car, than two huge speakers).

Does the OP needs 137dBSPL capacity of the DZR10 for instance?

Unless all of his audience is standing <10ft, yes. Also that's a very optimistic PEAK Spl setting while on the clip limiter. You are not going to get >102db(a) average in the audience in any real-world deployment with those.

 

[phoenixdogfan]

Couple/three more names to throw out

First the GGNTKT M1

Model M1 - Active loudspeaker for immersive sound experiences.

Model M1 is a compact and digital 2.5-way active loudspeaker, equipped with waveguide, cardioid bass and FIR filters. Listen for yourself →

ggntkt.de

Second the Mesanovic CDM 65

Mesanovic CDM65 3-way Studio Monitor Review

Mesanovic CDM65 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

And finally, the Kef LS 60, which is well covered here and elsewhere.

Any one of those three should be excellent.

 

[ocinn]

What frequency ballpark would you recommend for crossing over the mains to the central sub (or sub cluster)? Seems to me there is likely to be a "multi-leafed clover" net radiation pattern at the bottom end of the horizontally-spaced mains. If so, how do you minimize that?

Yes, but not really an issue in the real world. The "petals" of the clover are not very deep. Not nearly as much as improperly deployed sub-arrays at low frequencies. The EV system design handbook, and sub-array paper both demonstrate how the lobing gets "more ragged" but "less severe" as frequencies rise. Most PA systems are crossed at 80-105hz. Depends on a lot of factors.

Also talking about subwoofer array directivity, indoors, is kind of ridiculous. For example, Soundvision, the software used in post #35 does not take room effects into account. Other softwares, can, however, and you'll notice designing an ideal deployment in that software will NOT be very idealized if you disable all of the walls from the simulation (2pi). But also as a touring smaller musician you cannot get blueprints of the venue, simulate, and deploy a system to inch-level accuracy lol. Thus why I recommended him one single subwoofer and two small easily mobile tops on stands. It's the best trade-off of all factors IMO.

Couple more names to throw out

First the GGNTKT M1


Second the Mesanovic CDM 65

And finally, the Kef LS 60, which is well covered here and elsewhere.

Any one of those three should be excellent.

Jesus Christ.

All of those are going to get knocked over and beer spilled on them in 30mins of being in a live setting. I can literally see some dude pressing the tweeters in out of curiosity and boredom. Let alone transporting them safely to random gigs across the country. There is a reason there is a market for PA speakers, if you could do their job so much better with these hi-fi offerings, no one would use them.

Not to mention none of those are pole mountable. You need speakers well above the audience's height. You also need 118db (minimum) continuous clean output at 1m to even be considered for live use. None of those can do that.

 

[ocinn]

- Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook

- Between the Lines: Concepts in Sound System Design and Alignment by Michael Lawrence

- Sound Systems: Design and Optimization by Bob McCarthy

3 books people on this forum should read to gain some external perspective of what goes into system design, which is about as different to the things we discuss here as it is similar.

Especially before recommending things like wireless kef home speakers for a PA system, to someone who might actually do it.

And to @Monos , consider trying other forums geared to your question. Even r/livesound is filled with well recognized people in the industry who are happy to give you valuable advice (ex: the author of between the lines is a a known member there). And hear perspectives from people who actually tour and have been in the same position as you, and understand logistics and risks.

I’m ejecting myself from this convo because I’m about to cause premature baldness from pulling my hair out

 

[sarumbear]

The total weight of my proposed setup is lighter. The only thing that's close is the sub is 107lbs, something which you need to pick up once. Vs 2x 95lb speakers (his current) which you need to pick up, carry, and then lift 7ft in the air, over your head to put on a stand. I'd be happy to pick up 13 lbs more to save myself all the hassle.

Also to make my point even more firm, 2x DZR10 + 1x DXS18XLF = 23,022 in^2 of space taken up. His current setup of 2x DZR315 takes up 31,261.68 in^2. That's 27% smaller.

So not only is my setup lighter and far easier to transport and setup/strike, as well as being much higher performing, its also SMALLER and takes up less room in the car. (also much easier to find room for two tiny mid/his in a car, than two huge speakers).

You earlier said the following:

A) Put two 30lb speakers on top of a 100lb subwoofer (on wheels) and push it into the venue, and easily place the speakers onto poles and crank them up with no effort...

I would DZR10 + DXS18XLF. Get tall stands, and get a couple of these. Speakers should be high up and tilted down towards the crowd. You can use a 8" or 10" even when crossing to a subwoofer.

The phrase "get a couple of these" implied the use of two subs. Am I wrong? If not, you are handling two subs, each weighing 48.9kg (107.8lbs) and measuring 550 mm (21.7") x 657 mm (25.9") x 720 mm (28.3"). Add the tops, each weighing 17.9kg (39.5lbs) and measuring 315 mm (12.4") x 537 mm (21.1") x 345 mm (13.6"). Total weight: 133.6kg (293.9lbs).

How do you propose those to fit a car? Is lifting almost 100kg at the end of the gig practical and easier to the OP's back than carrying two DZR315?

 

[dannut]

This is helpful, thanks. In retrospect the DZR12's would've probably sufficed, but I liked the idea of a 3-way & not needing a sub.

Did you know, that DZR15 comes with the same woofer as your DZR315?

• Smaller box (couple Hz less low freq. extension)
• Wider coverage (90 vs 70), but due to high crossover freq. it has a dip at the edges of the pattern between ca 1000-1600Hz
• Significantly lighter, but with the same low frequency output capability
• AND with a -7deg pole mount! So you can get them on the pole, crank them high up in the air and aim them down at the back of the audience. Your audience and your back deserve better.

Going with the 12" costs you again a little bit of low end extension and ~3-4dB less output at bass frequencies (40-70Hz). But you gain a significant box volume reduction and a smoother upper-midrange. Same with the 10".

Might just stick with what I have tho, maybe a little heavy lifting is acceptable trade-off for the sound quality. Unless the columns really do compete.

I urge you to reconsider. One wrong move and that's it, 42kg/93lbs is serious weight. You have one of the best 'boxes', but they are meant to be rigged up in the air, not lifted. They don't come with pole mount.

Now a little rant:

I really like the idea of a minimal setup, setting down a couple of smart monitors that sound great & yet can compete with loud pa systems. It seems the technology is there, but I really can't say

It's not that the technology isn't there, but you stumble upon a game of tradeoffs: low extension/output(efficiency)/size - pick two.
Yamahas DZR and JBL SRX 8xx lines are different from others - they have lower frequency extension, higher bass capability than the competition (could be used without subwoofer. Not that they should ). As mentioned previously, PA monitors usually are used with a subwoofer system, so they can be optimized for their task.

Yamaha uses a very similar woofer to a Kappalite 3015lf. It has one of the best parameters to use in a lighweight bass-capable monitor and instrument cabinet (bass-guitar/synth). Usually PA monitors are optimized around a 4mm xmax capable woofer (size-efficiency-extension, remember?). This one has double that, getting in to PA subwoofer territory. JBL SRX is another line with similar virtues. But they are heavier.

So you are already using the pinnacle of technology. You can go smaller by sacrificing low frequency extension and output.

 

[Duke]

Yamaha uses a very similar woofer to a Kappalite 3015lf. It has one of the best parameters to use in a lighweight bass-capable monitor and instrument cabinet (bass-guitar/synth). Usually PA monitors are optimized around a 4mm xmax capable woofer (size-efficiency-extension, remember?). This one has double that, getting in to PA subwoofer territory.

I love the Kappalites. I use a custom version of the 3015LF in some of my bass cabs, and the little brother of the 3015LF, the 3012LF, in a two-way bass cab ("Thunderchild 112") that some customers use for electric piano and/or keyboards, shown here with optional adjustable up-firing horn, protective small Nerf football removed from throat of up-firing horn for photo:

The Kappalites have extraordinary power-to-weight ratios and a motor that subjectively "hits harder" than woofers which "on paper" look like they should be better, perhaps because of superior magnetic field geometry which doesn't show up in the raw specs. Imo a custom rig with one or two 3015LF subwoofers plus a couple of wide-pattern top boxes maybe with the 3012HO would make a very good light-duty keyboards rig. Of course the horn and crossover get a vote in the sound quality of the final result.

 

[ocinn]

The phrase "get a couple of these" implied the use of two subs. Am I wrong?

Those are tilt adapters. They go on top of the speaker stands and angle the mid/his down a few degrees to

a) keep the front few rows closer to vertical axis of the speakers

b) allow higher speaker stands, which when higher and tilted down, smooths the SPL gradient over the depth of the crowd

c) reduces the amount of acoustic energy thrown at the back wall and ceiling, and redirects it more efficiently towards the crowd (human bodies are great acoustic treatment)

Also @dannut nailed it above again, but I might add that there is really no reason to not go with the 10” option for OP’s use case, just to save weight and space. I didn’t know that the other Yamahas had a -7 pole mount which is a killer feature. DZR proving again it’s the cutting edge of the pro-Sumer PA segment (apart from Martin CDDLive).

 

[sarumbear]

Those are tilt adapters.

I may be wrong in understanding your suggestion but you suggested using two tilt adapters and placing tops over the subs, it means you are suggesting to use two tops one on each wheeled sub. Total weight of almost 100kg just for the subs.

What am I missing?

 

[gnarly]

I may be wrong in understanding your suggestion but you suggested using two tilt adapters and placing tops over the subs, it means you are suggesting to use two tops one on each wheeled sub. Total weight of almost 100kg just for the subs.

What am I missing?

2 stands....
and better than sub pole(s) to begin with

 

[Rja4000]

Currently I'm using 2 Yamaha DZR315 & love them, but I simply can't haul these things around the country anymore.

Well, if you love them, why not to just scale them down a little ?
Did you try the DZR12 ?

 

[ocinn]

I may be wrong in understanding your suggestion but you suggested using two tilt adapters and placing tops over the subs, it means you are suggesting to use two tops one on each wheeled sub. Total weight of almost 100kg just for the subs.

What am I missing?

Two crank-up stands, one sub. We all wrote about how two-spaced subs are bad, so I wouldn't ever recommend that.

2x DZR10 + 1x DXS18XLF

I even outlined the numbers here.

Well, if you love them, why not to just scale them down a little ?
Did you try the DZR12 ?

or even the DZR10s + a dedicated subwoofer. Would be higher performing, smaller, and lighter, even if you grabbed a small 12" sub from another brand.

 

[Rja4000]

- Devialet Phantom I — I'd be getting two for stereo. The apparently wide dispersion is appealing.
- Cabasse Pearl — Ditto
- Genelec 8351 or another Genelec — Will 2 of these fill a small venue? (I like the proposition of really clear highs w/ Gen)
- Kali IN-8 — Like 4-8 of them ... how well do they pair/chain? How well do they compete with Gens? Ease of setup is appealing.
- Presonus Sceptre S8 — Ditto
- Kef LS50 Wireless II

None of that will work
And you'll probably break them at first attempt.

They are from a completely different planet, if you compare SPL capability, compared to your current set.

I've managed some voice live events (small venue) with a pair of Genelec 1032.
But even that, I wouldn't recommend.

 

[sarumbear]

Two crank-up stands, one sub.

Thank you for the clarification. I appreciate it.

 

[peniku8]

Couple/three more names to throw out

First the GGNTKT M1

Model M1 - Active loudspeaker for immersive sound experiences.

Model M1 is a compact and digital 2.5-way active loudspeaker, equipped with waveguide, cardioid bass and FIR filters. Listen for yourself →

ggntkt.de

Second the Mesanovic CDM 65

Mesanovic CDM65 3-way Studio Monitor Review

Mesanovic CDM65 Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

And finally, the Kef LS 60, which is well covered here and elsewhere.

Any one of those three should be excellent.

If you had spent 30 seconds and actually checked the link you posted, you would've found the compression graph of the CDM65 and found out that this speaker is not at all suited for the task at hand and would have wasted the OP a lot of money and caused a lot of frustration:

Also both speakers you linked have quite wide vertical radiation, which is generally not desirable in a PA context, plus all the other drawbacks @ocinn already mentioned.
Looking at posts and suggestions like this just has me shaking my head.

Also talking about subwoofer array directivity, indoors, is kind of ridiculous. For example, Soundvision, the software used in post #35 does not take room effects into account. Other softwares, can, however, and you'll notice designing an ideal deployment in that software will NOT be very idealized if you disable all of the walls from the simulation (2pi). But also as a touring smaller musician you cannot get blueprints of the venue, simulate, and deploy a system to inch-level accuracy lol. Thus why I recommended him one single subwoofer and two small easily mobile tops on stands. It's the best trade-off of all factors IMO.

The moment you're inside a small(ish) room, any simulations go out of the window anyways, but this paper by Todd Welti suggests that having multiple subs indoors makes for a more even response across the room. Of course the proposed ideal solutions are typically impossible in a regular live setting, but having just a single sub is pretty much guaranteed to result in getting nulls at certain positions in the audience, unless the room has an extremely odd shape or the space is very lossy.
Having two tops on two subs indoors will likely result in a more even coverage than having just a center sub, while it is guaranteed that a center sub will result in a far far better coverage in an outdoors setting (essentially omni). Hence my suggestion for 4 subs, which will make for a great experience indoors as well as outdoors. And when the extra headroom isn't needed for a small indoors show, OP can bring just two subs. In this case I'd also go for subs on the smaller side; I like my 12" subs for this, they're about 60lbs each and I can easily carry one alone.

 

[ocinn]

Also both speakers you linked have quite wide vertical radiation, which is generally not desirable in a PA context

Wide vertical dispersion is totally acceptable in point source PA use when deployed correctly (high and splayed downwards) . I’m not sure where you got this from. For line arrays different story of course.

In fact I’d rather take a wide vertical dispersion true point source (ala Danley) vs a point source which exhibits directivity errors like most 2 way boxes which would cause tonality shifts (unacceptable) front-to-back in the audience, instead of just standard inverse square level drop.

The moment you're inside a small(ish) room, any simulations go out of the window anyways, but this paper by Todd Welti suggests that having multiple subs indoors makes for a more even response across the room. Of course the proposed ideal solutions are typically impossible in a regular live setting, but having just a single sub is pretty much guaranteed to result in getting nulls at certain positions in the audience, unless the room has an extremely odd shape or the space is very lossy.

Um no, no amount of room effect is going to be able to salvage someone from being 20ms off axis of a subwoofer. 2 separated subwoofers >1/4 wavelength are impossible to integrate properly indoor, outdoor, whatever. You need at least 6 (3 per side) to be able to use beam forming and gain shading to somewhat salvage the response.

Page 15 of your document quoted literally proves my point. The “B” config with much more consistent distances to the subwoofers performs better than the “A” config which has a wider variance of delay.

The thought process of “multiple subs smooths room response” is true when the main listening position is relatively equidistant from both subwoofers. In a live setting you very well may have someone 3ft from one sub and 15ft from the other. The effects of the room do not save the inherent cancellation issues involved with that.

I’ve been in the live system design industry since I was a teenager and I will tell you the most foolproof way to deploy subwoofers indoor is

a) a stack of them dead center between the main Pa

b) an array 1/4 wavelength apart of the -6db point of the low pass filter, beamsteered with a gradient delay and level applied.

Please read the resources I mentioned in post #45 and also read the EV sub handbook

Optimizing bass for a group of confined seated positions vs optimizing for a variable and wide dancefloor in venues where placement is physically limited could not be more different.

 

[Rja4000]

Another option to address your weight concern is to go with passive speakers.
A Nexo PS15 R2 is 28kg, for a max SPL similar to your current Yamaha.
You'd need the amp as well, but that's again 15kg or so.

Nexo system makes them perform similarly to active speakers, but with an amp in a separate box.

That's around 7.5k€ (VAT excluded) for the set with amp.
But it's also pretty common on second hand market.

NB: If you need more bass extension, you'll need a sub on top. Maybe the smaller PS10 R2 + a pair of SUBS could be a better option then.

 

[peniku8]

Wide vertical dispersion is totally acceptable in point source PA use when deployed correctly (high and splayed downwards) . I’m not sure where you got this from. For line arrays different story of course.

Op said it's going to be small-ish gigs, there is no "high" there, most likely. Hence either the first rows will get blasted, or they will fight a lot of ceiling reflections when using wide vertical dispersion speakers.
I personally consider single very high hung wide dispersion speakers "niche" in a PA context, which is why I added the "generally" to my sentence, but the statement seems to have been misinterpreted anyways. I didn't wanna go in-depth into a scenario that is irrelevant in the context of this thread.

In fact I’d rather take a wide vertical dispersion true point source (ala Danley) vs a point source which exhibits directivity errors like most 2 way boxes which would cause tonality shifts (unacceptable) front-to-back in the audience, instead of just standard inverse square level drop.

Naturally. That's what we have line arrays for. The most important thing is to have the right tool for the job at hand (and to know how the tools we have work).

Um no, no amount of room effect is going to be able to salvage someone from being 20ms off axis of a subwoofer. 2 separated subwoofers >1/4 wavelength are impossible to integrate properly indoor, outdoor, whatever. You need at least 6 (3 per side) to be able to use beam forming and gain shading to somewhat salvage the response.

Page 15 of your document quoted literally proves my point. The “B” config with much more consistent distances to the subwoofers performs better than the “A” config which has a wider variance of delay.

The thought process of “multiple subs smooths room response” is true when the main listening position is relatively equidistant from both subwoofers. In a live setting you very well may have someone 3ft from one sub and 15ft from the other. The effects of the room do not save the inherent cancellation issues involved with that.

I’ve been in the live system design industry since I was a teenager and I will tell you the most foolproof way to deploy subwoofers indoor is

a) a stack of them dead center between the main Pa

b) an array 1/4 wavelength apart of the -6db point of the low pass filter, beamsteered with a gradient delay and level applied.

Please read the resources I mentioned in post #45 and also read the EV sub handbook

Optimizing bass for a group of confined seated positions vs optimizing for a variable and wide dancefloor in venues where placement is physically limited could not be more different.

Again, OP said small-ish gigs. I assume 100 people. Not 500. The point of the paper is quite literally to prove that spatial variance in (small to medium) rooms is reduced with multiple subwoofers.

Page 15 of the linked document you pointed out actually proves exactly this point if you don't take it out of context:
It shows a 'good' and a 'worse' configuration of 2 subwoofers, but if you read on to page 16, you will see that even the best simulating single subwoofer setup will perform worse than both of the previously presented double sub configurations.
We see standard deviation of dual sub setup A at 1.3dB, setup B at 2.6dB and the (optimized) single sub setup 3.9dB.
The evaluation on page 20 shows that all single sub configurations perform worst of the simulated configurations, but also show that having subs at multiple locations may or may not improve things (but at worst perform the same).

It's important to note that this paper works with a rectangular room, so the conclusions should be taken with a grain of salt when considering different room layouts. The bigger it gets, the less sense the 2.2 configuration makes, indeed, but in my current assumption of gigs for 50-150 people, it's rather unlikely to perform worse than a center stack.
The most important take away is to judge the circumstances and choose the right layout/setup.

 

[deni]

We do not recommend our CDM65 for live sound applications lol. Plenty of good recommendations in this thread so far. We've installed Martin Audio, Yamaha, and EAW in several commercial locations and they're all great. The CDD line from Martin Audio is great as well as their more affordable BlacklineX. Their new FlexPoint line appears to be even a notch above the CDD line. I haven't heard them yet, but I'd expect great performance. Another option would be KV2 Audio if they're available in your area. I've heard their powered EX line and was impressed. They have 6",10",12", 15", dual 6" two way options and 12",15",18" subwoofer options.