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Tube Rolling: Does it Make a Difference?

LTig

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For those who might find something like this a bit of fun....(and of course not presented as 'proving' anything)...

Here's a relatively recent video, testing sound quality differences between tubes in the same amp:

EL34, 6550, KT88, KT120: Which Tube Sound Best? SOUND DEMO with QUALIO IQ Open Baffle speakers​




I'm curious for anyone who cares to listen: do you hear any differences and if so, what?

I believe I do (though see my tag line) and it seems pretty consistent. I listened first on my desktop, then in my home theater system, and percieved the same differences between the tubes. I won't say what I *think* I heard so as not to prejudice anyone else's listening.

Though I found it fascinating that the character of the KT120 tubes stood out the most for me, seeming to do some of the very things I heard when I replaced my 6550s with that tube. And I note that many of the comments under the video seem to be identifying the same sonic characteristics I heard.
I hear clear differences each time I see the change of tube, but ...
  • the differences are biggest when I concentrate on the name of the current tubes
  • the differences are smaller when I concentrate my eyes on the painiting on the wall
  • the differences disappear completely when I close my eyes and I even don't note the change at all.
 

MattHooper

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I have a Rogue Cronus Magnum 2 tube Integrated amp with KT120 tubes. Thank you for testing this theory . I have always wondered about it now I know it’s unnecessary

Curious: could you elaborate? What did you discover to be unnecessary?
 

MattHooper

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I hear clear differences each time I see the change of tube, but ...
  • the differences are biggest when I concentrate on the name of the current tubes
  • the differences are smaller when I concentrate my eyes on the painiting on the wall
  • the differences disappear completely when I close my eyes and I even don't note the change at all.

Cool. I agree the differences diminish when you aren't looking.

I closed my eyes a number of times and identified when the sound changed. Especially in the changes between the EL34/KT88 and the KT120s.

(Hardly a rigorous blind test, obviously).

Out of curiosity, could you say what (apparent) sound changes you perceive when you see the tube labels while watching?
 

mhardy6647

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Without actually looking at the specs for all of those "kinkless tetrode" morphs, I really don't think their electrical properties are all identical even if they're considered "interchangeable". In other words, the operating points for each tube will be more or less subtly different from "optimal", or at least a bit off-axis (so to speak) for any given tube type relative to another. As many folks have pointed out before at ASR, a truly well-designed circuit will allow (correct) for this -- but such circuits are boring on the audiophile plane and thus seldom implemented in modern commercial designs. So, of course, different tubes impart different flavors, as intended.

One of those QED things. :)
 

LTig

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Cool. I agree the differences diminish when you aren't looking.
This.
Out of curiosity, could you say what (apparent) sound changes you perceive when you see the tube labels while watching?
Sound changed from somewhat bright and hard (EL34) to laid back (KT120) with each change, and I think it correlates with the color of the light (hard day light to soft evening light).
 

dfuller

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Without actually looking at the specs for all of those "kinkless tetrode" morphs, I really don't think their electrical properties are all identical even if they're considered "interchangeable".
Far from it. KT88s are more or less 6550s - which are not all that similar to EL34s, at all. KT120s are sort of a "super KT88" and are similar but not identical - slightly higher gain, lower plate resistance.

EL34s have substantially different characteristics from beam tetrodes, given the true pentode design vs beam tetrodes.

This.

Sound changed from somewhat bright and hard (EL34) to laid back (KT120) with each change, and I think it correlates with the color of the light (hard day light to soft evening light).
The EL34s did sound the hardest to me; I'd attribute it to them having somewhat higher distortion and lower power output, as it was most obvious when the singer got loud. Otherwise, all interchangeable. These are tubes entirely in their linear regions, they are not being run hard enough to be distorting much. I find guitar amps - where tubes are run very far outside of linear - to be a much more reliable indicator of a tube's "sound".
 
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MattHooper

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Without actually looking at the specs for all of those "kinkless tetrode" morphs, I really don't think their electrical properties are all identical even if they're considered "interchangeable". In other words, the operating points for each tube will be more or less subtly different from "optimal", or at least a bit off-axis (so to speak) for any given tube type relative to another. As many folks have pointed out before at ASR, a truly well-designed circuit will allow (correct) for this -- but such circuits are boring on the audiophile plane and thus seldom implemented in modern commercial designs. So, of course, different tubes impart different flavors, as intended.

One of those QED things. :)

I've always inferred that tube rolling is just a way of (possibly) making an amp not work to original spec. But that some people end up enjoying the result.
I'd say that when tubes sound different in my CJ gear, it's departing from the original designed performance. They sound "closest to neutral" with the original recommended tubes, both power and input. However, I've found I enjoy some of the coloration of other tubes sometimes.

Sound changed from somewhat bright and hard (EL34) to laid back (KT120) with each change, and I think it correlates with the color of the light (hard day light to soft evening light).

Interesting, thanks!

The EL34s did sound the hardest to me; I'd attribute it to them having somewhat higher distortion and lower power output, as it was most obvious when the singer got loud. Otherwise, all interchangeable.

My impressions were:

El34
sounded slightly thickened and congested and a bit forward and edgy.

KT88
also a bit thicker/richer though not as edgy and more softer/laid back in the highs. Cymbals and especially drum snares always seemed to become a bit more almost muffled and in the background.

KT120
These produced for me among the most obvious sonic changes, especially right before or after the EL34 and KT88s. The sound cleaned up, a haze was removed from cymbals, drums, especially piano keys, ambience/reverb became more obvious. And the bass seemed a bit more weighty. On my home theater system it was like the sound became a bit more dimensional, more transparent in to the recorded venue.

6550s
Most neutral sounding. Most even, not overly rich, not as soft, more matter of fact, less bass than the KT120s, less clean/clear less ambience retrieval.

I found it fascinating to (at least think I) hear the qualities I hear with the KT120s in my system (though not as obvious as it seems when actually switching tubes in my system), where the KT120s produce deeper, weightier, slightly more in grip bass, a sense of clearer sound, more brilliant highs, larger soundstage/imaging, and more obvious retrieval of reverb and space around images.

Also interesting (to me) are youtube comments echoing this under the video:

- I loved the KT-120 valves. What struck me over and over is the much deeper soundstage and openness of the sound, along with deeper bass and extended highs of course.

- KT120. The most live, the most transparent, the most airy and the most natural sounding. It sounds as if the system doesn't exist and you hear the musicians live in your room!!!!!

- All the KT tubes have a transparent mid / upper, but the 120 also has bass.

- KT120. The bass is deeper and the overall openness of the highs is evident

- KT120 most cohesive, realistic sound stage and timber.
 

SIY

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Also interesting (to me) are youtube comments echoing this under the video:

- I loved the KT-120 valves. What struck me over and over is the much deeper soundstage and openness of the sound, along with deeper bass and extended highs of course.

- KT120. The most live, the most transparent, the most airy and the most natural sounding. It sounds as if the system doesn't exist and you hear the musicians live in your room!!!!!

- All the KT tubes have a transparent mid / upper, but the 120 also has bass.

- KT120. The bass is deeper and the overall openness of the highs is evident

- KT120 most cohesive, realistic sound stage and timber.
This says a bit more than you likely intended. :cool:
 

mhardy6647

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I've always inferred that tube rolling is just a way of (possibly) making an amp not work to original spec. But that some people end up enjoying the result...
Poor innocent loudspeakers often fall victim to similar, possibly even well-intentioned, abuse.
This example, e.g., hurts to look at. :(

 

fpitas

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Poor innocent loudspeakers often fall victim to similar, possibly even well-intentioned, abuse.
This example, e.g., hurts to look at. :(

Now now. He probably is very proud of his baby ;)
 

mhardy6647

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Now now. He probably is very proud of his baby ;)
26 pages' worth!!!
In all seriousness, if any of y'all get bored enough, you should skim that thread. It's emblematic of the kind of stuff that results when the right brain hemisphere slaughters the left [EDIT: fixed my aphasia!].
Don't get me wrong -- I do think (heretical though it be here) that there's a place for the subjective in this hobby. If nothing else, one's taste in music is sort of unquantifiable (even if, for any one of us, it may be very predictable). But the ends that some folks will go to to improve a commercial design are... well... sometimes sadly comic.
 

fpitas

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26 pages' worth!!!
In all seriousness, if any of y'all get bored enough, you should skim that thread. It's emblematic of the kind of stuff that results when the right brain hemisphere slaughters the left [EDIT: fixed my aphasia!].
Don't get me wrong -- I do think (heretical though it be here) that there's a place for the subjective in this hobby. If nothing else, one's taste in music is sort of unquantifiable (even if, for any one of us, it may be very predictable). But the ends that some folks will go to to improve a commercial design are... well... sometimes sadly comic.
People do it with cars, too. I guess it's the desire to stamp individuality on things that you may not really understand.
 

mhardy6647

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I'll be completely honest (even though the following goes without saying at a place like ASR): The simple and non-optimal (objectively speaking) design of my chosen power amplifier (single ended 2A3, zero added NFB) is the root cause of its sensitivity to the electrical properties of the active components (tubes) used in it -- maybe some of the passives, as well. So -- instead of little knobs to turn to adjust the tone or contour, one may swap tubes to accomplish the same thing! It's much more expensive, and less predictable! But it's fun. In fact -- it's fun to even know one may do it if one wishes to, whether one actually does "roll tubes" or not! :)

JELSimple45-2A3schematic.jpg

Joseph Esmilla's "Simple 45/2A3" amp design: http://jelabsarch.blogspot.com/2012/06/je-labs-simple-452a3.html



People do it with cars, too. I guess it's the desire to stamp individuality on things that you may not really understand.

DX189_6E4D_9.JPG

Good point.
Maybe I'll hang a pair of fuzzy dice on my amplifier.
:cool:
 

fpitas

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I'll be completely honest (even though the following goes without saying at a place like ASR): The simple and non-optimal (objectively speaking) design of my chosen power amplifier (single ended 2A3, zero added NFB) is the root cause of its sensitivity to the electrical properties of the active components (tubes) used in it -- maybe some of the passives, as well. So -- instead of little knobs to turn to adjust the tone or contour, one may swap tubes to accomplish the same thing! It's much more expensive, and less predictable! But it's fun. In fact -- it's fun to even know one may do it if one wishes to, whether one actually does "roll tubes" or not! :)

JELSimple45-2A3schematic.jpg

Joseph Esmilla's "Simple 45/2A3" amp design: http://jelabsarch.blogspot.com/2012/06/je-labs-simple-452a3.html




Good point.
Maybe I'll hang a pair of fuzzy dice on my amplifier.
:cool:
Do the highs roll from driving the 2A3 Miller capacitance?
 

mhardy6647

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The HF is a bit rolled-off, but I think there are multiple reasons.
We take care of that, and my own built in, age-related auditory shortcomings, with a supertweeter :)
Actually the measured in-room FR of my Frankenaltecs is surprisingly flat.

Oh -- I just want to be clear. I love this amplifier. I enjoy it immensely, and I am indebted to Joseph Esmilla (who is a musician in his day job) for the design (which is very straightforward, essentially 'by the book'). But it sits in a very different place than, say, a Benchmark amplifier. ;)
 

fpitas

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The HF is a bit rolled-off, but I think there are multiple reasons.
We take care of that, and my own built in, age-related auditory shortcomings, with a supertweeter :)
Actually the measured in-room FR of my Frankenaltecs is surprisingly flat.

Oh -- I just want to be clear. I love this amplifier. I enjoy it immensely, and I am indebted to Joseph Esmilla (who is a musician in his day job) for the design (which is very straightforward, essentially 'by the book'). But it sits in a very different place than, say, a Benchmark amplifier. ;)
Yes, it is quite simple. Maybe I would have used a mu-follower to drive the 2A3 grids, but already I'm complicating things :)
 

mhardy6647

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Yes, it is quite simple. Maybe I would have used a mu-follower to drive the 2A3 grids, but already I'm complicating things :)
You're completely correct!
Actually, the voltage amp in mine is slightly different than the original design -- but that's kind of peripheral to the topic at hand!

The story of this particular amp was chronicled here:
I should mention that "Redboy" and I also have very similar tastes in sound reproduction.

In fact, this just might be a photo of him with Dave Slagle, playing catch with tubes (the next phase in one's development after simply rolling them). :)

DSC_4326 (2).JPG
 

fpitas

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You're completely correct!
Actually, the voltage amp in mine is slightly different than the original design -- but that's kind of peripheral to the topic at hand!

The story of this particular amp was chronicled here:
I should mention that "Redboy" and I also have very similar tastes in sound reproduction.

In fact, this just might be a photo of him with Dave Slagle, playing catch with tubes (the next phase in one's development after simply rolling them). :)

View attachment 277709
Well, the way he has it might cancel some even-order distortion. So maybe my way would look fancier but just use more parts!
 

Grumpish

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Hardly a rigorous test, but I can remember watching some YouTube videos on someone tube rolling on a Schitt Freya. Yes, I could definitely hear a difference, though not the one I was supposed to be hearing, to me the new tubes sounded better than the ridiculously expensive NOS tubes. Out of curiosity I decided to see if I could tell which tube was being used with my eyes closed - and I could no longer hear any difference. Much as I like tube amps, I have always been skeptical about tube rolling and the supposedly better sound of NOS tubes - that pretty much confirmed my skepticism.
 

Bob from Florida

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the ends that some folks will go to to improve a commercial design are... well... sometimes sadly comic.

The thing about commercial designs is the cheapest components are selected to maximize profit. Maybe consider replacing electrolytic caps in crossovers with cost effective polypropylene caps... Just don't get carried away with the expensive parts that only provide "buzzword bragging" rights.
 
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