Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[fpitas]

Can we argue about Ford vs Chevy next? I see Chevy adopted the old Ford intake runner pattern...

 

[fpitas]

I owned a turntable and a tube amp when I was a lad. The amp was a single-ended pentode (50L6 as I recall) into a tiny transformer. I enjoyed it immensely.

 

[egellings]

Wait a second, talk about obsolete and expensive technology! A properly equipped Honda Civic would smoke that thing in any type of performance category and on a track it would be an even worse embarrassment. In addition a Honda Civic is cheaper, safer, quieter, 4 times more economical, and about 4 orders of magnitude less polluting. In 2023 I just don't see why anyone would bother with a car like that as it has not been relevant for performance in over 4 decades. I guess you are being influenced by car writers and car hipsters. Time to let go of your obsolete and expensive toys and step up to modern cars. I just don't understand.

Liking a car like that is sort of like liking a tube amp. The tube version will not perform as well technically as a little hand-held GaN switch-mode one, but the aesthetic of the glowing tubes is the draw. And, if done correctly, the valve amp can acquit itself quite well sonically if it is able to adequately drive the speakers paired with it. I admit, I am, um, biased (-42Vdc grid to cathode) because I own home-brewed ones. I also gits to say "made 'em muhself!".

 

[MattHooper]

Liking a car like that is sort of like liking a tube amp. The tube version will not perform as well technically as a little hand-held GaN switch-mode one, but the aesthetic of the glowing tubes is the draw. And, if done correctly, the valve amp can acquit itself quite well sonically if it is able to adequately drive the speakers paired with it. I admit, I am, um, biased (-42Vdc grid to cathode) because I own home-brewed ones. I also gits to say "made 'em muhself!".

Agreed. I like the glowy-ness of tubes 'n shiny things.

BTW, is there not a "member's systems" area anywhere, or some thread where people have shown images of their systems? I'd really enjoy seeing
photos from other members!

 

[levimax]

Some recent remasters are just as good as, if not better than, the original issues. The Music Matters and Blue Note Tone Poet reissues have been phenomenal.

I was refering mostly to pop / rock music. Jazz has always been better recorded and mastered and re-mastered. I have a bunch of the older Blue Note CD's both original and some reissues and they all sound good to me. I would still love to get some original Blue Note RVG mastered LP's but the cost is hard to justify snd I doubt they sound any better.

 

[Newman]

I don't understand this urge to force conformity of thought and behavior onto others and if they won't conform to mock and ostracize them. The idea that there is only one "correct" way to enjoy a hobby seems very limiting and boring to me.

You are right, and I wondered whether to include that last paragraph, especially since I have, on numerous occasions and in more than one forum, said that there's room for everyone in this hobby, whatever you want to get out of it.

And I do hold to that: you are all welcome!

So why did I suggest sending them to a fenced compound in the bottom right corner of the site, or even to Collectors Universe? Mainly frustration at the, hopefully small, subgroup of them that are more troublemakers and denialist than anything, when it comes to the original mission of ASR.

Sorry about that.

OTOH it is worth reflecting on whether ASR has become an 'all things audio' forum just like any other (in which case "come in, come in!"), or is it still focused on bringing evidence-based science to the hobby, which means many cherished audio myths and marketing malarkey will be challenged and busted (in which case "come in if you want to learn a lot, but not so much if you are a champion of all the classic audiophile BS and myths supported by no evidence other than "I heard it (sighted)", and prepared to argue to the ends of the earth for that approach, in which case, there might be other audio forums more suited to your beliefs").

Which is it? I still think it is the latter, and I still see evidence of the mods seeing it that way too, when they chase away some members who come here with a certain mindset, even though, @levimax that technically counts as what you called "the urge to force conformity of thought and behaviour onto others...(or)...ostracise them". There is a line...if we want ASR to be a site that has 'a line'.

cheers

 

[JP]

If there's no BS or myths then what is the issue with people talking about outdated technology?

 

[thewas]

0 to 60 times (and most of the other stuff C/D measures) are analogous (in a way) to distortion measurements you read here on ASR. Almost all distortion measurements at almost all price ranges become trivial, in the 'can I hear this?' department. Just like almost all newer cars (to include pickup trucks) are more than quick enough to merge on to on-ramps, or pass other cars on a two land divided highway.

True, although at least in a blind test almost anyone would be able to discern the acceleration in a car with 0-60 in 5s vs one with 8s, while the difference of 90 to 120 dB SNR is purely academical.

 

[Angsty]

If there's no BS or myths then what is the issue with people talking about outdated technology?

We even test outdated technology here!

 

[MattHooper]

You are right, and I wondered whether to include that last paragraph, especially since I have, on numerous occasions and in more than one forum, said that there's room for everyone in this hobby, whatever you want to get out of it.

And I do hold to that: you are all welcome!

So why did I suggest sending them to a fenced compound in the bottom right corner of the site, or even to Collectors Universe? Mainly frustration at the, hopefully small, subgroup of them that are more troublemakers and denialist than anything, when it comes to the original mission of ASR.

Sorry about that.

OTOH it is worth reflecting on whether ASR has become an 'all things audio' forum just like any other (in which case "come in, come in!"), or is it still focused on bringing evidence-based science to the hobby, which means many cherished audio myths and marketing malarkey will be challenged and busted (in which case "come in if you want to learn a lot, but not so much if you are a champion of all the classic audiophile BS and myths supported by no evidence other than "I heard it (sighted)", and prepared to argue to the ends of the earth for that approach, in which case, there might be other audio forums more suited to your beliefs").

Which is it? I still think it is the latter, and I still see evidence of the mods seeing it that way too, when they chase away some members who come here with a certain mindset, even though, @levimax that technically counts as what you called "the urge to force conformity of thought and behaviour onto others...(or)...ostracise them". There is a line...if we want ASR to be a site that has 'a line'.

cheers

I think your concern is quite reasonable.

First I suspect you may be overstating the prevalence of "denialists" here (whatever exactly that means). We've seen some people show up who we might fit in the "subjectivist camp" and make some unjustified claims, or even some who might be trolling to a degree. But those seem to be generally rare and I don't see any ongoing cadre of "denalists" among the usual ASR members.

But aside from that, I think the question you raise is always a good one: what kind of place does Amir and/or ASR members want ASR to be?

I've certainly engaged in lots of subjective talk about audio here, and if too many people do that ASR could end up looking like any other audiophile site rather than a more hard-nosed measurement-oriented site. So that's a challenge.

On the other hand, if we go too far the other way this site becomes another Hydrogenaudio where subjective talk is essentially verboten. It doesn't seem to me ASR members want a forum that becomes that "dry" - it would tend to look like the caricature of the "spock like vibe where the only passion is put towards measurements/blind testing and don't mention to anyone how you feel" - many audiophiles already have of ASR that we are often trying to dispel.

As I've said before, as far as I can tell from the way Amir runs things here, and from the general tenor all taken together of members, plus the sub forums on offer, this can be a "Big Tent" forum, casting a net as wide as possible, welcoming as many as possible, rather than turning off lots of people with some super-strict hydrogen-audio-type goal. So that Big Tent would be: ASR is a place to learn about how audio equipment works. You come to learn what is bullshit and what isn't. It's not a place the demands you purchase any particular type of gear in order to feel welcome or not. A member can learn here, but use that knowledge to buy whatever gear suits his/her fancy. Again, the fact that Amir saw fit to create sub-forums for things like Turntables/Phono Amplifier/Cartridge Reviews supports this idea.

And so ideally (IMO) one can talk about any type of equipment, and also about what one perceives, but that will be done in the context that if you make B.S. and poorly justified claims you should be ready to be called on it. So for instance any claims made from sighted listening would be seen here as coming with caveats - could be sighted bias - where those caveats are NOT applied in many other typical audiophile forums.

I think so long as everyone is on a similar page in that regard, it allows for a more casual atmosphere, less off-putting to people who may have been otherwise put off from learning here, while maintaining the stricter standards of evidence we want, and an emphasis on trying to appeal to objective evidence wherever possible.

​

 

[jsrtheta]

I think your concern is quite reasonable.

First I suspect you may be overstating the prevalence of "denialists" here (whatever exactly that means). We've seen some people show up who we might fit in the "subjectivist camp" and make some unjustified claims, or even some who might be trolling to a degree. But those seem to be generally rare and I don't see any ongoing cadre of "denalists" among the usual ASR members.

But aside from that, I think the question you raise is always a good one: what kind of place does Amir and/or ASR members want ASR to be?

I've certainly engaged in lots of subjective talk about audio here, and if too many people do that ASR could end up looking like any other audiophile site rather than a more hard-nosed measurement-oriented site. So that's a challenge.

On the other hand, if we go too far the other way this site becomes another Hydrogenaudio where subjective talk is essentially verboten. It doesn't seem to me ASR members want a forum that becomes that "dry" - it would tend to look like the caricature of the "spock like vibe where the only passion is put towards measurements/blind testing and don't mention to anyone how you feel" - many audiophiles already have of ASR that we are often trying to dispel.

As I've said before, as far as I can tell from the way Amir runs things here, and from the general tenor all taken together of members, plus the sub forums on offer, this can be a "Big Tent" forum, casting a net as wide as possible, welcoming as many as possible, rather than turning off lots of people with some super-strict hydrogen-audio-type goal. So that Big Tent would be: ASR is a place to learn about how audio equipment works. You come to learn what is bullshit and what isn't. It's not a place the demands you purchase any particular type of gear in order to feel welcome or not. A member can learn here, but use that knowledge to buy whatever gear suits his/her fancy. Again, the fact that Amir saw fit to create sub-forums for things like Turntables/Phono Amplifier/Cartridge Reviews supports this idea.

And so ideally (IMO) one can talk about any type of equipment, and also about what one perceives, but that will be done in the context that if you make B.S. and poorly justified claims you should be ready to be called on it. So for instance any claims made from sighted listening would be seen here as coming with caveats - could be sighted bias - where those caveats are NOT applied in many other typical audiophile forums.

I think so long as everyone is on a similar page in that regard, it allows for a more casual atmosphere, less off-putting to people who may have been otherwise put off from learning here, while maintaining the stricter standards of evidence we want, and an emphasis on trying to appeal to objective evidence wherever possible.

​

Nicely put.

I find that there is a lot going on in this forum that is worth enjoying and learning from. What trolls show up here either amscray fairly quickly, or settle down and learn and contribute.

Thinking back on all the forums I've been on over the years, this place has far less vitriol and snark. On a lot of sites it's all hyperbole and hostility. Which is why this is the only audio forum I frequent.

 

[JP]

...what kind of place does Amir and/or ASR members want ASR to be?

"Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required..."

---------------------------------------------------

I've never seen it stated that discussions should be limited to the current SOTA. There's actually a sub-forum named Turntables, Phono Amplifier, Cartridges Review. I've noted Amir has even reviewed a few phono stages over the years.

I also notice when our Audio Luminaries, Technical Experts, and most general membership comment in these threads it's only to provide relevant knowledge and insight.

When I think of where the disconnects are, ambiguity of the topic in "ASRs" charter isn't something that immediately comes to mind.

Personally, I'd like a home for technical discussion on analog sources. Vinyl is plagued with just as much BS as the rest of audio, and it'd be good for there to be a place where the real technical aspects can be discussed. This doesn't work well on most other forums as most of the membership doesn't understand it or isn't interested in it, and when there's an issue the moderators really aren't equipped to navigate it. While presently a minority, there are some folks that are open to learning; It's a gateway.

On the other hand, I've pretty much written-off ASR as the home for analog technical discussions, which is a shame as a good number of the technical members here do have a lot they could share. The Biff Tanner welcoming duo pretty much makes it a non-starter, which seems to be their intended purpose. Call me funny, but I just don't think a 2x4 to the forehead of 'vinyl is bad and you're an idiot for listening to it' is all that welcoming, regardless of how open-minded a person may ultimately be. As a person who understands the shortcomings of the format, the delivery is so obtuse and ignorant that it thwarts my desire to participate.

Sometimes the negative aspects of ASRs reputation are very well earned, and very well deserved. While I find that to be embarrassing, I've no doubt a small population wear it as a badge of honor.

​

 

[fpitas]

We even test outdated technology here!

Which we should. Somebody will always claim "the new stuff" is crap unless there are accurate measurements of the old tech to compare. And from Amir's measurements we can see the steady systematic decline of tube amp performance since the 1960s. There are a few manufacturers with integrity, but lots without.

 

[Angsty]

Call me funny, but I just don't think a 2x4 to the forehead of 'vinyl is bad and you're an idiot for listening to it' is all that welcoming, regardless of how open-minded a person may ultimately be. As a person who understands the shortcomings of the format, the delivery is so obtuse and ignorant that it thwarts my desire to participate.

I just let the vinyl detractors roll off my back. There are more than enough vinyl listeners on ASR to offset that.

 

[JP]

I just let the vinyl detractors roll off my back. There are more than enough vinyl listeners on ASR to offset that.

Sure but new people probably won’t.

 

[egellings]

We even test outdated technology here!

If you like the 300B single ended sound or you like the Krell arc welder power sound, enjoy what you like.

 

[Angsty]

If you like the 300B single ended sound or you like the Krell arc welder power sound, enjoy what you like.

What’s important to me at ASR is that could test both and compare how they measure as well as our experiences with both. What I think I hear may not be what is measured.

I certainly don’t mind subjective opinions, so long as they are couched as such and not as objective facts.

 

[egellings]

I agree that measurements define what will be heard in audio electronics. Thing is someone may prefer the sound of a piece that measures poorly over a better spec'd one.

 

[Angsty]

I agree that measurements define what will be heard in audio electronics. Thing is someone may prefer the sound of a piece that measures poorly over a better spec'd one.

Preferences happen. And it’s also true that a better spec’d unit may not always be sonically distinguishable. Such as may be the case when comparing a 118 dB SINAD DAC to a 122 dB DAC.

 

[egellings]

Agree. Both DACs are so preposterously good that it would be impossible for human ears to tell a difference in their S.Q.