Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

[EJ3]

Wait a second, talk about obsolete and expensive technology! A properly equipped Honda Civic would smoke that thing in any type of performance category and on a track it would be an even worse embarrassment. In addition a Honda Civic is cheaper, safer, quieter, 4 times more economical, and about 4 orders of magnitude less polluting. In 2023 I just don't see why anyone would bother with a car like that as it has not been relevant for performance in over 4 decades. I guess you are being influenced by car writers and car hipsters. Time to let go of your obsolete and expensive toys and step up to modern cars. I just don't understand.

Influenced by owning one, having owned one or having a friend with one. Funny you are.

The HONDA CIVIC? Really! Only if it is properly equipped by the aftermarket. The Honda that you are talking about can be easily beat by my now 120HP, modern computer controlled electronic ignition combined with the fuel injection 1971 VW Super Beetle (with Air Conditioning, bought new in Germany) in every department (on and off the track and off road too) except emissions.

I had a Honda Fit. When I changed the suspension and tires, it finally let it's soul come out.

The second generation CRX (in my case 88), when set up properly (European Engine Trim [128 HP instead of 108], heavily aftermarket suspension trim), could get through a slalom course quicker than a Ferrari. And Also, the only front wheel drive car that I have ever driven that I truly ever liked.

An R spec Accord is a good base to start with (a friend had one).

My 2012 option loaded Lexus ES 350 sucked (the only thing I liked was the stereo [Mark Levinson [the company, not the man] is a decent audio system as far as cars go) until I changed the suspension and tires, Now, it's tolerable.

But my 1979 Trans/Am (which meets 1982 New Car emissions without catalytic convertors), (compared to my 2012 Lexus) makes 75% more power, gets the same or better fuel economy, is a lot stronger and is way more fun to drive. And will absolutely trample it on the track & is a great and comfortable cruiser on the 2700 mile trips I take twice a year. I use different cars for different things.

That also begs the question: why am I driving it if I don't enjoy it. For that matter, why do I do anything else, if I don't enjoy it (there is a difference between enjoy and having fun).

I also keep my cars until I can't. All my cars have at least 300,000 miles on them before they go to the graveyard. I keep them out of the landfill
Your honking about the emissions is just a small part. What about end of life pollution? What about the hazardous materials disposal of the end of life vehicle?
What does putting your car of choice into the grave yard of cars do to the environment?
But, I guess some people never look at the whole picture because they are myopic.

 

[Sal1950]

I don't buy the argument that a cassette renaissance is imminent - that really is a strawman.

Don't look for any strawman. It was simply an hypothetical example like 78's or Edison Cylinders.

Niche formats---SACDs, DVD-A and Blu-Ray, other multi-channel formats---never took off.

What planet have you been living on?
The streamers are all jumping on the multich wagon,
All that's dead is hard median, LP's included.
Most folks will soon tire of the inconvenience + expensive of vinyl.
90% of the vinyl stuff will be stored in the attic or basement along with their
electric trains or slot cars. LOL

Influenced by owning one, having owned one or having a friend with one.

If you really want something fast and that will give you thrills
Get a motorcycle. I did that 50+ years ago and never looked back.
You just need a real set of balls to ride them.

 

[Newman]

Because artists get the greatest renumeration for vinyl offerings, artists are going to support LPs over other formats.

Not only the artists: everyone in the supply chain gets greatest renumeration per song on vinyl.

But there's a sting in the tail: that sweet renumeration is reflected in the exorbitant price per song that the consumer is charged for vinyl.

They have found a way to charge us 400% to 1000% more for the same product, musically speaking. Well duh, if the consumer is gullible enough to still buy a sow's ear but pay silk purse prices, who isn't going to prefer to rip them off?

If the artist wants the most people to experience their work, LP is the last place they should be preferring: try streaming. OTOH if they are in it primarily for the money, such 'artists' will obviously support LP.

 

[Sal1950]

They have found a way to charge us 400% to 1000% more for the same product, musically speaking. Well duh, if the consumer is gullible enough to still buy a sow's ear but pay silk purse prices, who isn't going to prefer to rip them off?

Exactly,

 

[EJ3]

Don't look for any strawman. It was simply an hypothetical example like 78's or Edison Cylinders.

What planet have you been living on?
The streamers are all jumping on the multich wagon,
All that's dead is hard median, LP's included.
Most folks will soon tire of the inconvenience + expensive of vinyl.
90% of the vinyl stuff will be stored in the attic or basement along with their
electric trains or slot cars. LOL

If you really want something fast and that will give you thrills
Get a motorcycle. I did that 50+ years ago and never looked back.
You just need a real set of balls to ride them.

Donzi/Shelby 22 ft boats are nice too. I haven't seen any speed limits in the open ocean. And most people can jump one of them further than they can a motorcycle (if their knees are op to being pounded on the landings [because unless you are in an air suspension seat, you're not doing it sitting down]).

 

[MaxBuck]

Here is one about a juke box which is a record player.... you got any songs about DAC's

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="

" title="Juke Box Saturday Night Soundie Glenn Miller" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>

I love that song!

 

[levimax]

Influenced by owning one, having owned one or having a friend with one. Funny you are.

The HONDA CIVIC? Really! Only if it is properly equipped by the aftermarket. The Honda that you are talking about can be easily beat by my now 120HP, modern computer controlled electronic ignition combined with the fuel injection 1971 VW Super Beetle (with Air Conditioning, bought new in Germany) in every department (on and off the track and off road too) except emissions.

I had a Honda Fit. When I changed the suspension and tires, it finally let it's soul come out.

The second generation CRX (in my case 88), when set up properly (European Engine Trim [128 HP instead of 108], heavily aftermarket suspension trim), could get through a slalom course quicker than a Ferrari. And Also, the only front wheel drive car that I have ever driven that I truly ever liked.

An R spec Accord is a good base to start with (a friend had one).

My 2012 option loaded Lexus ES 350 sucked (the only thing I liked was the stereo [Mark Levinson [the company, not the man] is a decent audio system as far as cars go) until I changed the suspension and tires, Now, it's tolerable.

But my 1979 Trans/Am (which meets 1982 New Car emissions without catalytic convertors), (compared to my 2012 Lexus) makes 75% more power, gets the same or better fuel economy, is a lot stronger and is way more fun to drive. And will absolutely trample it on the track & is a great and comfortable cruiser on the 2700 mile trips I take twice a year. I use different cars for different things.

That also begs the question: why am I driving it if I don't enjoy it. For that matter, why do I do anything else, if I don't enjoy it (there is a difference between enjoy and having fun).

I also keep my cars until I can't. All my cars have at least 300,000 miles on them before they go to the graveyard. I keep them out of the landfill
Your honking about the emissions is just a small part. What about end of life pollution? What about the hazardous materials disposal of the end of life vehicle?
What does putting your car of choice into the grave yard of cars do to the environment?
But, I guess some people never look at the whole picture because they are myopic.

Performance of a 2023 Civic R from Car and Driver. I am pretty sure this is faster than any car made in the US in 1961 in stock form. For sure faster than the stock 409 mentioned.

C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.1 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.5 sec @ 106 mph
140 mph: 28.3 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.9 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 9.4 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 6.4 sec
Top Speed (mfr's claim): 169 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 153 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 308 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft
Skidpad: 1.02 g

 

[Inner Space]

OTOH if they are in it primarily for the money, such 'artists' will obviously support LP.

The choice is pretty much binary - in it for some money, or for no money at all. Streaming pays most artists sums statistically indistinguishable from zero. Vinyl sales keep bands going. The mark-up is less than the T shirts they sell.

Ironically it was a desperate move on their part, but to release on vinyl "only" has become a mark of indie authenticity, and for fans to shell out for it has become a mark of their own authenticity. I wonder how much of the renaissance has been driven by that hipster subculture.

 

[Sal1950]

Here is one about a juke box which is a record player...

Better yet

 

[Sal1950]

for fans to shell out for it has become a mark of their own authenticity.

I'm not sure authenticity is the correct word here.
But I'll be nice.

Performance of a 2023 Civic R from Car and Driver. I am pretty sure this is faster than any car made in the US in 1961 in stock form. For sure faster than the stock 409 mentioned.

C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 4.9 sec
100 mph: 12.1 sec
1/4-Mile: 13.5 sec @ 106 mph
140 mph: 28.3 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.3 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 5.9 sec
Top Gear, 30–50 mph: 9.4 sec
Top Gear, 50–70 mph: 6.4 sec
Top Speed (mfr's claim): 169 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 153 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 308 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft
Skidpad: 1.02 g

Apples To Apples please

2023 Dodge SRT Hellcat
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 3.5 sec
100 mph: 7.5 sec
150 mph: 17.2 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.4 sec
1/4 mile: 11.5 sec @ 126 mph
Top speed (mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 155 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 309 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.93 g

 

[Newman]

Those who obsess over gear and software are increasingly in the vinyl camp, digital fans increasingly stream, meaning digital software is not going to be collected as LPs were and are about to be.

The audio hobby has members who want to hear and appreciate great musical art at home, sounding its best. They are only gear-heads to the extent it maximises the amount and sound quality of musical art they can access for their limited budget.

Calling the above members "digital fans" is ridiculous. They are agnostic to the technology that best serves their goal of the most access to the most great art, sonically closest to the experience that was carefully crafted and heard in the studio.

But the audio hobby also has members who, deep down, are more collectors than anything else. Their mindset has more in common with people who collect stamps, coins, model trains and skewered butterflies. When these members are forced to choose between the most access to the most music at the highest quality for their budget, versus collecting and holding special gear and special editions and rare objects that they can trade and talk about and gather and build, they choose the latter. Audio comes second, at best. Your comment seems to be about these members.

Personally I think it would benefit the hobby if the latter members were relocated to Collectors Universe at forums.collectors.com. They draw too much bandwidth here and detract from the hobby. Or maybe create a little forum down at the bottom of the forums list and call it "Legacy and Revivalist Discussions", and quickly shift threads, like this one, down there. "Sorry, you want to know how to set up a cartridge and adjust tape bias? Right through this door, please."

cheers

 

[MattHooper]

The audio hobby has members who want to hear and appreciate great musical art at home, sounding its best.

That would describe everyone here ("best" per anyone's discretionary audio budget of course).

Calling the above members "digital fans" is ridiculous. They are agnostic to the technology that best serves their goal of the most access to the most great art, sonically closest to the experience that was carefully crafted and heard in the studio.

It's obvious what Robin meant I think. If digital audio as superior for that goal, that's why you much prefer it over, say, vinyl. The "agnostic" part is a red herring.
Until something better comes along (what would that be?)...you are an enthusiast regarding digital audio...not the other formats. And you will both choose digital and defend digital as superior should anyone say otherwise. That's what he is getting at.

And...that's ok.

But the audio hobby also has members who, deep down, are more collectors than anything else. Their mindset has more in common with people who collect stamps, coins, model trains and skewered butterflies. When these members are forced to choose between the most access to the most music at the highest quality for their budget, versus collecting and holding special gear and special editions and rare objects that they can trade and talk about and gather and build, they choose the latter.

Who are these people "forced to choose?" I'm not aware of any member who does not use or doesn't have access to digital music, are you?
"Collecting" equipment doesn't bar anyone from using digital sources.

And I'm not sure what's wrong with anyone being interested in equipment. That's why you are here constantly talking about it, like most others.

Our gracious forum proprietor has boatloads of equipment - measuring equipment, tons of audio gear constantly passing through his place. I don't see this means he has made any sacrifice of ever listening to music...on whatever format he likes.

Audio comes second, at best. Your comment seems to be about these members.

Personally I think it would benefit the hobby if the latter members were relocated to Collectors Universe at forums.collectors.com. They draw too much bandwidth here and detract from the hobby. Or maybe create a little forum down at the bottom of the forums list and call it "Legacy and Revivalist Discussions", and quickly shift threads, like this one, down there. "Sorry, you want to know how to set up a cartridge and adjust tape bias? Right through this door, please."

cheers

If someone owns more than one source type, why would that make them a "collector?" rather than just another "audiophile? on this site" Is there some dictum that anyone here should only own...what? One amp, one pair of speakers, one DAC? Are they allowed to own a pre-amp? Or a phono stage? Or a turntable? What if...gasp...they have more than one pair of speakers in the house (like so many do). Have they become a filthy "collector" now who should be "relocated?" Should Amir be banished given his "gear head" interests in audio gear, which includes measuring vinyl-related gear like phono stages? What's the criteria?

Honestly, I have no idea who you could be sensibly talking about, and your criteria seems utterly vague if not totally arbitrary, simply to cast aspersions on some faction of the membership.

Cheers.

 

[levimax]

The audio hobby has members who want to hear and appreciate great musical art at home, sounding its best. They are only gear-heads to the extent it maximises the amount and sound quality of musical art they can access for their limited budget.

Calling the above members "digital fans" is ridiculous. They are agnostic to the technology that best serves their goal of the most access to the most great art, sonically closest to the experience that was carefully crafted and heard in the studio.

But the audio hobby also has members who, deep down, are more collectors than anything else. Their mindset has more in common with people who collect stamps, coins, model trains and skewered butterflies. When these members are forced to choose between the most access to the most music at the highest quality for their budget, versus collecting and holding special gear and special editions and rare objects that they can trade and talk about and gather and build, they choose the latter. Audio comes second, at best. Your comment seems to be about these members.

Personally I think it would benefit the hobby if the latter members were relocated to Collectors Universe at forums.collectors.com. They draw too much bandwidth here and detract from the hobby. Or maybe create a little forum down at the bottom of the forums list and call it "Legacy and Revivalist Discussions", and quickly shift threads, like this one, down there. "Sorry, you want to know how to set up a cartridge and adjust tape bias? Right through this door, please."

cheers

I don't understand this urge to force conformity of thought and behavior onto others and if they won't conform to mock and ostracize them. The idea that there is only one "correct" way to enjoy a hobby seems very limiting and boring to me.

 

[Galliardist]

I'm not sure authenticity is the correct word here.
But I'll be nice.

Apples To Apples please

2023 Dodge SRT Hellcat
C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 3.5 sec
100 mph: 7.5 sec
150 mph: 17.2 sec
Rolling start, 5–60 mph: 3.7 sec
Top gear, 30–50 mph: 1.8 sec
Top gear, 50–70 mph: 2.4 sec
1/4 mile: 11.5 sec @ 126 mph
Top speed (mfr's claim): 203 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 155 ft
Braking, 100–0 mph: 309 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.93 g

Does the 0-60 time denote "soul" or value?
I know very little about cars, and don't drive. But I know my sister still drives a 1974 Ford Sierra and it might just be her best friend.

And on the other hand, here's a mystery orange for you:

C/D TEST RESULTS
60 mph: 2.1 sec
100 mph: 4.3 sec
130 mph: 6.9 sec
1/4-Mile: 9.4 sec @ 151 mph
160 mph: 10.8 sec
Results above omit 1-ft rollout of 0.2 sec.
Rolling Start, 5–60 mph: 2.3 sec
Top Speed (gov ltd): 162 mph
Braking, 70–0 mph: 150 ft
Roadholding, 300-ft Skidpad: 1.08 g

Soul?

Lets just say: whether it's cars, or hifi, or the interminable Apple vs Android debate, or whatever, it's really about people rather than the underlying technologies, isn't it?

 

[Sal1950]

Lets just say: whether it's cars, or hifi, or the interminable Apple vs Android debate, or whatever, it's really about people rather than the underlying technologies, isn't it?

Ya think ???
Without the technology what would you have,
Nothing, it all starts there.

 

[anmpr1]

Does the 0-60 time denote "soul" or value?

Audio to Cars...

0 to 60 times (and most of the other stuff C/D measures) are analogous (in a way) to distortion measurements you read here on ASR. Almost all distortion measurements at almost all price ranges become trivial, in the 'can I hear this?' department. Just like almost all newer cars (to include pickup trucks) are more than quick enough to merge on to on-ramps, or pass other cars on a two land divided highway. Top speed is generally not an issue for anyone.

In addition, most stop and corner reasonably well--with the exception of a few outliers that are not necessarily designed to do that (Jeep, F series trucks etc).

For the vast majority of car enthusiasts it's mostly academic, although some might actually use something like 'launch control' in order to 'have fun', occasionally. And higher performance specs are certainly important for the few who 'track' their cars on the weekends, but those are outliers.

For the vast majority of audio buyers, differences are pretty meaningless, too (apart from cosmetics)-- one DAC is going to be as good as another, in your living room, no matter where it fits on the ASR Blue Scale of Goodness.

Driving 'feel', is of course subjective, but can be quantified depending upon the goal. There cannot be a 'one size fits all' in this category. I think that is the same for loudspeakers. If you want to drive the Nurburgring Nordschleife, a GT3 will be more appropriate than a Wrangler. If you are wading streams and climbing rocks... With audio, it's the same. If your goal is to drive Klipschorns, then a five or ten watt tube amp will suffice. If you own Apogees, you'll need something completely different.

Soul and value? 'Soul' might relate to driving fun, or build quality, or other cosmetic features. 'Value' could be how many cupholders are offered, and how many cases of beer (or golf balls, or whatever metric C/D now uses) can be stuffed into the trunk, at a given price point. A few cars, such as the GTI or possibly Golf R, attempt to merge the two concepts, with pretty good success.

Audio? Accuphase (or pick whatever...) v a Pioneer receiver. There are probably some 'value/soul' audio brands out there.

When you start talking about records (or tape) you are really into 'hot rod' DIY stuff, almost. I mean, instead of computer controlled electronic fuel injection, do you want four Webers with velocity stacks, or dual Holleys? But like digital in audio, a Hurst shifter isn't going to run the gears nearly as fast as your computerized dual clutch automatic. Although installing a Hurst and Thrush muffler in your '68 Pontiac GTO on the weekends might be more 'satisfying' to you in the long run.

That's probably about as far as I can stretch the analogy.

 

[Andretti60]

…
Driving 'feel', is of course subjective, but can be quantified depending upon the goal. There cannot be a 'one size fits all' in this category.

That is oh so true, thank you for posting it.

I just add that “one size fits all” doesn’t fit “any” category, music included of course, this is why I don’t judge people based of the type of medium they want to listen to their music, as long as they enjoy and get pleasure from it.

 

[TonyJZX]

this comes down to "if you dont know, you dont know"... "if you dont care, you dont care"

there's a heap of people who have no problems listening to music off the built in speakers on a LCD tv

there's heaps of people that think that the height of personal transport is owning an electric van with captains chairs with your own personal driver (this happens in some countries)

some people are fine with an automatic gearbox and really see no difference between a dual clutch or CVT or a conventional hydraulic auto

i personally cannot stand vocals or even computer based games running off the speakers built into a TV ... i dont think i'm unusual on *THIS* forum

even running just youtube vocals i cannot even put up with anything less than a decent set of PC speakers like a logitech 2.1 - i find just listening to voices or podcasts and trying to absorb information painful if the vocals arent accurate

do you enjoy listening to instructions over a phone? or a two way CB radio? or an intercom? perhaps with someone whose main langauge is not English?

and i feel like i have generally lower requirements than many people here!

 

[mglobe]

That is oh so true, thank you for posting it.

I just add that “one size fits all” doesn’t fit “any” category, music included of course, this is why I don’t judge people based of the type of medium they want to listen to their music, as long as they enjoy and get pleasure from it.

/thread

 

[Angsty]

I get your point, but my point was more that many older recordings that are remastered are made to sound like something new with reduced dynamics and boosted EQ and it is interesting to hear how it sounded originally and some may prefer it that way.

Some recent remasters are just as good as, if not better than, the original issues. The Music Matters and Blue Note Tone Poet reissues have been phenomenal.