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Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?

Newman

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or Can anyone explain the vinyl resistance?

Simple answer. Four groups.
Group 1 - those who kept their vinyl from the days when vinyl was “it” and continue to purchase when they want to.
Group 2 - those who discovered vinyl for the first time and thought it was cool. This seems to have started about 15 years ago.
Group 3 - those who ditched their vinyl for CD’s and later decided to get back to vinyl in some minor or major way.
Group 4 - those who ditched their vinyl for CD’s and never looked back.

Groups 1,2,&3 are the drivers of the “renaissance”. Group 4 is where you will primarily find the “resistance“….
Thanks Bob for this thoughtful summary.

I think there is a Group 5 which may be the biggest group (and do not belong to Group 2): rap/hip-hop fans. By whom I mean people who are focused on rap and fully integrated into its culture.

I think this group is important because, only a few years ago, I saw a statistic on vinyl sales that showed rap as the top-selling genre on vinyl.

But browsing ‘playing now’ threads on the audio hobby forums shows a severe under-representation of rap. Maybe there’s a privileged-white-male-audiophile thing running inside this hobby, but that’s another thread.

Bottom line, IMO there is an elephant-in-the-room blind spot to this discussion.
 

Sal1950

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i have an electric car now... you know there's almost no 'soul' 'character' to an EV... in that there's no soul in an Toyota Camry

there is "SOUL" and interaction in my old V8 6 speed manual sports car
Amen,
I went to the Mecum Auto Auctions in Kissemmee yesterday and just walked around looking
at all the beautiful classic cars for sale and crying over the schitt boxes the try to sell us today.
My buddy had to about drag me out, I had just fallen in love with this awesome 1961 Chevy
bubbletop 409 - 4speed. Baby blue frame off restoration looking better than the ever did new.
I'm still crying.
 

levimax

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Amen,
I went to the Mecum Auto Auctions in Kissemmee yesterday and just walked around looking
at all the beautiful classic cars for sale and crying over the schitt boxes the try to sell us today.
My buddy had to about drag me out, I had just fallen in love with this awesome 1961 Chevy
bubbletop 409 - 4speed. Baby blue frame off restoration looking better than the ever did new.
I'm still crying.
Wait a second, talk about obsolete and expensive technology! A properly equipped Honda Civic would smoke that thing in any type of performance category and on a track it would be an even worse embarrassment. In addition a Honda Civic is cheaper, safer, quieter, 4 times more economical, and about 4 orders of magnitude less polluting. In 2023 I just don't see why anyone would bother with a car like that as it has not been relevant for performance in over 4 decades. I guess you are being influenced by car writers and car hipsters. Time to let go of your obsolete and expensive toys and step up to modern cars. I just don't understand. ;)
 

Newman

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So if I want to listen to music originally recorded by musicians and recording engineers that knew it was going to be distributed on vinyl
and cassette, don’t forget cassette!
I am going to get closer to how they created it by listening to a digital version made from decades old tapes with massive EQ and compression? Maybe true for "new" digital recorded music but not so much for older recordings.
If you want to get closer to how they created it, ditch your speakers and get a pair of original Auratone 5C speakers. Then leave this forum forever. ;)

The whole authenticity argument is fraught. Popular music was popular in its day on little plastic record players in mono with a three-inch driver and no sealed enclosure, because the music buyers were school kids. So if you want an authentic listener experience, I’ll see you in the op shops.

And if you want an authentic studio intention experience, firstly, take the musicians out of that intention because just too few cared about it — the Beatles, Fripp, Fagan? — it’s a small list. What I’ve seen from studio engineers suggests that the typical musician’s instructions are to make the sound what sells the most, and if a musician has strong opinions on the sound, it’s because he or she has a strong opinion on what sound sells the most.

IIRC Fripp, who originally blanked Steven Wilson’s requests to remix his early work into MCH, saying it would pervert his original creation, then grudgingly allowed Wilson to do just one song as a demo, did a complete Fripp-flip when he heard it and said “that’s what I originally envisioned it to sound like, that was my intent way back then”. Hence the project was born to remix his early work to MCH, and arguably the modern product is the truest to the artist’s intent. So maybe, speaking more broadly now, the originals are not so much true intent as tech-limited intent.

Which brings us to the engineer’s intent. It’s the same deal about being a tech-limited compromise vs what they would have liked to do. If they had today’s tools back then, they would have made a much better sound (in their view). When they get a rare chance to remix their own older work and access to well-preserved original tapes, they take the opportunity to make it sound more like what they always wanted.

cheers
 

Sal1950

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Sal, I got into audio when I was a high school student back in 1958 in Chicago and working as an usher for the Chicago Symphony Orchestra when Fritz Reiner was the conductor.
I didn't know you were one of my home-boys, I was living right down the street from there for 60 years.

I understand what your saying but what would you say if the cassette craze got huge and ASR got invaded by folks
crowing about their glorious sound to anyone who will listen? Pure anal-og and all that don't ya know. LOL
Or 78s, or Edison Cylinders ?
The LP had it's time and place as a High Fidelity source, the best science had to offer, as did the others I just listed.
But those days are long over for all of them.
I've repeatedly stated that everyone is free to listen and enjoy anything they like
I only interced when I think the situation needs better focus on the SOTA science of music reproduction in reasonably current times.
Like since 1985 ;)



Yep, not the same car, mine was blue on blue, but a black one would work too. .
 
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Sal1950

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Wait a second, talk about obsolete and expensive technology! A properly equipped Honda Civic would smoke that thing in any type of performance category and on a track it would be an even worse embarrassment. In addition a Honda Civic is cheaper, safer, quieter, 4 times more economical, and about 4 orders of magnitude less polluting.
But that rice burner is boring and ugly as hell, I wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
Think anyone will ever write a song about one. Not today, not ever ROTFLMAO
 

levimax

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There are a lot of songs about records but none about DAC's....

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="
" title="The Tweeds - I Need That Record - 1980" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

levimax

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and cassette, don’t forget cassette!

If you want to get closer to how they created it, ditch your speakers and get a pair of original Auratone 5C speakers. Then leave this forum forever. ;)

The whole authenticity argument is fraught. Popular music was popular in its day on little plastic record players in mono with a three-inch driver and no sealed enclosure, because the music buyers were school kids. So if you want an authentic listener experience, I’ll see you in the op shops.

And if you want an authentic studio intention experience, firstly, take the musicians out of that intention because just too few cared about it — the Beatles, Fripp, Fagan? — it’s a small list. What I’ve seen from studio engineers suggests that the typical musician’s instructions are to make the sound what sells the most, and if a musician has strong opinions on the sound, it’s because he or she has a strong opinion on what sound sells the most.

IIRC Fripp, who originally blanked Steven Wilson’s requests to remix his early work into MCH, saying it would pervert his original creation, then grudgingly allowed Wilson to do just one song as a demo, did a complete Fripp-flip when he heard it and said “that’s what I originally envisioned it to sound like, that was my intent way back then”. Hence the project was born to remix his early work to MCH, and arguably the modern product is the truest to the artist’s intent. So maybe, speaking more broadly now, the originals are not so much true intent as tech-limited intent.

Which brings us to the engineer’s intent. It’s the same deal about being a tech-limited compromise vs what they would have liked to do. If they had today’s tools back then, they would have made a much better sound (in their view). When they get a rare chance to remix their own older work and access to well-preserved original tapes, they take the opportunity to make it sound more like what they always wanted.

cheers
I get your point, but my point was more that many older recordings that are remastered are made to sound like something new with reduced dynamics and boosted EQ and it is interesting to hear how it sounded originally and some may prefer it that way. In general I don't really trust musicians when it comes to remastering... in general they want to stand out and be noticed so louder is what they do with all the new technology. Steve Wilson has remixed about 60 albums (out of millions) and most of them sound great, at least tries to make things sound better for audio enthusiasts but he is the exception not the rule.
 

Newman

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@levimax that's a completely different issue to the points you made that I was responding to.

cheers
 

Newman

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I went to the Mecum Auto Auctions in Kissemmee yesterday and just walked around looking
at all the beautiful classic cars for sale and crying over the schitt boxes the try to sell us today.
My buddy had to about drag me out, I had just fallen in love with this awesome 1961 Chevy
bubbletop 409 - 4speed. Baby blue frame off restoration looking better than the ever did new.
I'm still crying.
You know, Sal, if your emotions and attitudes about cars spilled over into your audio hobby, you would be the biggest loudest vinylphile on the planet! ;)

At least thinking about cars will give you 100% empathy with vinylphiles.... :eek:
 
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Newman

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There are a lot of songs about records but none about DAC's....

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="
" title="The Tweeds - I Need That Record - 1980" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>
The vinyl equivalent of a DAC is a record player. You got lots of songs about record players?
 

levimax

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The vinyl equivalent of a DAC is a record player. You got lots of songs about record players?
Here is one about a juke box which is a record player.... you got any songs about DAC's

<iframe width="480" height="360" src="
" title="Juke Box Saturday Night Soundie Glenn Miller" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture; web-share" allowfullscreen></iframe>
 

Sal1950

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I get your point, but my point was more that many older recordings that are remastered are made to sound like something new with reduced dynamics and boosted EQ and it is interesting to hear how it sounded originally and some may prefer it that way. In general I don't really trust musicians when it comes to remastering... in general they want to stand out and be noticed so louder is what they do with all the new technology. Steve Wilson has remixed about 60 albums (out of millions) and most of them sound great, at least tries to make things sound better for audio enthusiasts but he is the exception not the rule.
I fully believe times are changing and better ones coming for much of the recording industry.
 

Angsty

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To repeat and summarize, I see ASR as a place to explore and learn about the science of equipment and systems to play recorded music, and not a place to obsessively pursue absolute "fidelity" to the sound produced by the mixing and mastering engineers.
I do like to read the work of Paul Miller in HiFi News measuring cartridges and turntables. Not many doing that anymore.
 

Xulonn

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I understand what your saying but what would you say if the cassette craze got huge and ASR got invaded by folks
I don't buy the argument that a cassette renaissance is imminent - that really is a strawman. Vinyl, turntables and tubes are still great fun for many people, but obviously no longer appeal to you. You could simply ignore threads about vinyl and turntables, but you seem compelled to visit them and complain.

The cassette and other "convenience" options were never SOTA audio reproduction formats. And slapping an audio cassette into a slot or recess and punching a button was never the same as interacting with a delicate dust and fingerprint-sensitive vinyl disk.

Even though I do not currently own a turntable, I can appreciate their appeal. There is a symmetry, grace and necessary interaction with vinyl disks, turntables and tonearms that allows engineering, art, and audio fidelity to intermingle in fascinating ways.

(OTOH, my strictly digital systems for audio and video are much more friendly to the environment in both energy consumed and resources used.)
 

levimax

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But that rice burner is boring and ugly as hell, I wouldn't be caught dead driving one.
Think anyone will ever write a song about one. Not today, not ever ROTFLMAO
I used a Honda Civic of an example of today's economy car being able to smoke yesterday's "best". An even worse comparison for the 1961 bubble top would be to a 2023 Camaro, Mustang, or Corvette. In any case I'm sure you get my point and of course I think a 1961 bubble top is a cool car and have no problem understanding why someone would want to own and enjoy one.... just like people owning and enjoying obsolete turntables.
 

Robin L

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I fully believe times are changing and better ones coming for much of the recording industry.
I fully believe the peak years for the audio-only recording industry are in the rear-view window. Those who obsess over gear and software are increasingly in the vinyl camp, digital fans increasingly stream, meaning digital software is not going to be collected as LPs were and are about to be. The peak years for digital recording and CDs were in the early 2000s, with sales of CDs gradually slipping ever since. Niche formats---SACDs, DVD-A and Blu-Ray, other multi-channel formats---never took off. Because artists get the greatest renumeration for vinyl offerings, artists are going to support LPs over other formats. If there are going to be technical advances in digital formats, those advances will be in streaming, as there's really no room for improvement in CDs and other physical digital formats done right.
 
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