HDMI and DACs not evolving

[Chrispy]

How about a Tonewinner pre-pro? If xlr is really important to you then perhaps finding an older Outlaw 975/976 (at least I think they had xlr too)

 

[bungle]

How about a Tonewinner pre-pro? If xlr is really important to you then perhaps finding an older Outlaw 975/976 (at least I think they had xlr too)

It is not really that important. After DAC possibilities are endless.

 

[Curvature]

Optical is dead. It was never updated to support anything past compressed 5.1, uncompressed max is stereo. Manufacturers consider it a legacy connector. I would not expect to see it at all for much longer except maybe on stereo DACs.

The same connector is used for ADAT lightpipe, which is more capable.

ADAT Lightpipe - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[sarumbear]

The same connector is used for ADAT lightpipe, which is more capable.

ADAT Lightpipe - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Not only the same connector but the same drivers as well. The difference is in encoding. However, as it’s 48kHz only it failed on the market once over-sampling became widespread.

 

[Chrispy]

It is not really that important. After DAC possibilities are endless.

There are many solutions you don't like otoh. I just think your particular wish list is not likely going to be filled any time soon (but perhaps in the future, as I mentioned, much of the 2ch silliness/nonsense needs to get out of the way of pure functionality).

 

[JSmith]

now we are talking.

Let's not jump the gun on that IMO... company specs are bare (nothing at all in the manual) and the stated SNR is nothing to write home about, although not terrible. I'd like to see some test measurements on this one.

Rated Bandwidth: 10Hz-20kHz (±1 dB)
SN Ratio: 90dB @1V input, 2 x 150W output
Power Amp: 300 watts RMS (150 watts x 2 into 4ohm)

JSmith

 

[Chrispy]

So much easier in many cases to simply use an avr....

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Not really. @Kal Rubinson commented that HDMI licensing is very expensive - $$$$$$$$$ was his comment. To which I asked where he got the data as I expected an 'Industry Insider' would comment on a subject that he knows about. However, he replied that he doesn't have any data because he hasn't researched the subject. Then how can he know that it is very expensive?

Because, some time in the past, I did have the data and knew the source but, after the passage of time, I retain only the conclusion.

 

[JSmith]

What are the fees for HDMI?

Annual Fee
HDMI Adopters must pay an annual fee of fifteen thousand dollars (US$15,000). The annual fee is due upon the execution of the Adopter Agreement, and must be paid on the anniversary of this date each year thereafter. Note that HDMI does provide an alternative annual fee payment for small-volume manufacturers (10,000 units or less). Please see Attachment B of the Adopter Agreement for details.

Royalty
HDMI is available for a reasonable royalty rate as follows:

• For each end-user Licensed Product, fifteen cents (US$0.15) per unit sold.
• If the Adopter reasonably uses the HDMI logo on the product and promotional materials, then the rate drops to five cents (US$0.05) per unit sold.
• If the Adopter implements HDCP content protection as set forth in the HDMI Specification, then the royalty rate is further reduced by one cent (US $.01) per unit sold, for a lowest rate of four cents (.04) per unit. Adopters must license HDCP separately from Digital Content Protection, LLC, an Intel subsidiary. Please see www.digital-cp.com for details.

https://car.france3.mars.free.fr/HD/INA-%2026%20jan%2006/Conf%20CST%20HDMI/HDMI-2/faq.asp.html

Registration to receive the HDMI Adopter Agreement

Become an HDMI® Adopter, Register to become an HDMI Adopters, License with HDMI

www.hdmi.org

JSmith

 

[bungle]

There are many solutions you don't like otoh.

I am willing to compromise. That SVS thing looks promising (rip off amps, but don’t do it for 2x price as AVPs). Need to wait for measurements. As said, I would like almost all the stereo dacs, if they added eARC and have reasonable meaurements. Doesn’t need to be SOTA. The SVS and some others are opening the game. The majority is still stuck in antique, but well served SPDIF (to serve HDMI audio). Yes, Tonewinner is one of the AVPs (actually the only AVP currently that is reasonably priced) worth to consider.

 

[Tom C]

The ToneWinner looks like a gem, but I have to buy from alibabba? No choice?

 

[bungle]

much of the 2ch silliness/nonsense needs to get out of the way of pure functionality).

What do you mean btw. with 2ch silliness/nonsense? You mean measurements gone crazy or highendism (the outer shell costs way more than the inner parts that matter)?

 

[charleski]

https://car.france3.mars.free.fr/HD/INA-%2026%20jan%2006/Conf%20CST%20HDMI/HDMI-2/faq.asp.html

View attachment 241729

Registration to receive the HDMI Adopter Agreement

Become an HDMI® Adopter, Register to become an HDMI Adopters, License with HDMI

www.hdmi.org

JSmith

It looks like that’s an archived page from 2006. I found another archive from 2008 that cites the annual fee to be $10000, so they may have reduced it.

 

[bungle]

It looks like that’s an archived page from 2006. I found another archive from 2008 that cites the annual fee to be $10000, so they may have reduced it.

I also found one that says small batches, like 10000, it is $5000.

 

[JSmith]

so they may have reduced it.

Yes that's a bit old... however the screenshot is from the 2nd link which is hdmi.org, so it doesn't seem to have changed since then.

I also found one that says small batches, like 10000, it is $5000.

Yes that is the 2nd option on the screenshot, $5000.


JSmith

 

[Sokel]

About dac evolution in general:
The next important step (specially amongst small companies) must be a simple decision.
To finally put their efforts on the software side.
The lonely guy in a small room trying to code a basic function,answering the new demands and dealing with bugs at the same time is a sad picture at the present time.
I don't care about sky-high SINAD (although I do care about SINAD vs level or freq) but I do care about features like HDMI (even as a future option for me) a modern,robust functional design and looks that fit a modern environment.
And let's not forget to reward the ones caring about environmental and human right proper handling,that's also evolution.

 

[sarumbear]

https://car.france3.mars.free.fr/HD/INA-%2026%20jan%2006/Conf%20CST%20HDMI/HDMI-2/faq.asp.html

View attachment 241729

Registration to receive the HDMI Adopter Agreement

Become an HDMI® Adopter, Register to become an HDMI Adopters, License with HDMI

www.hdmi.org

Taking the $5,000 figure diving it to 500 units, you get an extra cost of $10 multiply this with 3, you get $30 price increase. This is around 10% on mid range and 5% on expensive Chinese DACs that are manufactured in small quantities. Much less than that on boutique manufacturers.

I do not think that the reasoning of $$$$$$$$$$ holds, especially for main manufacturers who ship to the main channels.

 

[sarumbear]

https://car.france3.mars.free.fr/HD/INA-%2026%20jan%2006/Conf%20CST%20HDMI/HDMI-2/faq.asp.html

View attachment 241729

Registration to receive the HDMI Adopter Agreement

Become an HDMI® Adopter, Register to become an HDMI Adopters, License with HDMI

www.hdmi.org

JSmith

 

[bungle]

Taking the $5,000 figure diving it to 500 units, you get an extra cost of $10 multiply this with 3, you get $30 price increase. This is around 10% on mid range and 5% on expensive Chinese DACs. Much less than that on boutique manufacturers.

I do not think that the reasoning of $$$$$$$$$$ holds.

I think the cost comes from figuring out what needs to be licensed:
1. HDMI from HDMI organization
2. HDCP from Intel
3. What else is needed? If you want codecs, then I guess you need to contact here and there.

If these small shops are just: "I want to just put things together and sell them", then this bureaucracy may feel daunting. Figuring all the pieces may cost a lot of time. But don't we have component makers that have figured this jungle already, and then you just purchase components and put them together (the component manufacturer does the licensing, same way as DAC chip can be bought, and you get DSD/PCM with it)?

 

[JSmith]

I do not think that the reasoning of $$$$$$$$$$ holds

I don't disagree entirely... although I would say the company Essence that was raised earlier don't just make small amps and DAC's;

It can be done... $5K + $1 per unit isn't a great deal for smaller product runs, but of course will be passed on to the consumer as part of the price. People seem to get upset about MQA licencing fees... I can hear those now saying they don't need HDMI and why are they paying for it or HDMI shouldn't be in an "audiophile" product etc. As is often the case... a two edged sword.


JSmith