$30K Budget - On the quest for my "end game" speaker

[srrxr71]

I think a few of our members here are too polite to mention their own products that compete in this league:

James Romeyn – Music and Audio

jamesromeyn.com

active speakers and subwoofers High-end premium Sigberg Audio Norway

Sigberg Audio is made in Norway. Our premium loudspeakers and subwoofers provide excellent sound quality, effortless dynamics and realistic sound pressure.

www.sigbergaudio.no

I got hungry after clicking one of those.

 

[YSC]

re-read the original post, actually for the list OP made can be all considered end game for my book, all measured very good on axis and directivity is great for most models IIRC, in such case I would really say just pick the one you have more freedom to put in your place, and get more wife approval so you can enjoy music more

 

[MenloBob]

If you liked Khorns you should audition Klipsch Jubilees and JBL M2s.

 

[Mr. Widget]

Assuming he can audition all in his space. Barring that one would use numbers to at least short list their choices.

Absolutely! Using objective data is the best aid in winnowing the field to a manageable size.

On auditioning in one's space, while ultimately the best data will be determined in one's own space, this is often very difficult if not impossible to do.

 

[srrxr71]

Absolutely! Using objective data is the best aid in winnowing the field to a manageable size.

On auditioning in one's space, while ultimately the best data will be determined in one's own space, this is often very difficult if not impossible to do.

So the best we have is the science and the numbers in a practical sense. Now if someone really had a huge budget they would rent all of them and have people move them in and out of the room and we would have a real subjective shootout and hopefully we would get some objective measurements too.

If someone has the space maybe some of us could pool together some funds for this test which would involve an invite to be present. Hopefully the person with the space is wealthy enough to bear most of the cost and is curious enough. Maybe even be able to deduct the cost on taxes.

Somebody wake me up.

Me personally? I went blind. Just used measurements from here. Trying to build my end game system. It’s sad that I have to do that without trying all or even some of the other options. Who knows? I might have preferred another system. However when I listen to what I have i’m happy. So I can’t complain. Boo hoo first world problems.

 

[GXAlan]

Music preferences are everything (literally) except country (yuck).

So ... Opinions on the above choices? Anything not on the lists that I should consider?

I would say my bias is that you should definitely look at the used market. In this class of speaker, the used speakers are usually very well taken care of.

1) Magico S5 mk2

Magico S5 Mk.II loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Along with the Revel, Magico is going to be at the pinnacle of the tweeter/woofer box design. Kal Rubinson was selling his Revel setup

The nice thing about Revel is that it is easy to integrate into a home theater with options for rear speakers, etc. The Magico is visually going to be a more impressive speaker and likely measure better.

2) Sonus Faber Stradivari

Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 2: Measurements The drop-dead gorgeous Stradivari Homage is specified as having a very high 92dB voltage sensitivity; to Sonus Faber's credit, my estimated figure was even higher, at 93dB(B)/2.83V/m. However, the speaker asks the partnering amplifier for a lot of current capability, its...

www.stereophile.com

If you genuinely listen to every type of content, a bit of euphonic coloration might be in order. The Franco Serblin generation has a little bit of smiley face tuning without the super crazy exaggerated colorations. You know what else? Sighted bias can also be used in your favor.

3) KEF Blade One Meta
Closest to the perfect measurements due to the combination of science driven design and coaxial drivers. The reason everyone isn’t using coaxial drivers is that some people don’t prefer it. So you should try it…

4) JBL M2/Genelec
The M2 was still preferred by some people consistently over the Salon2 in the blind test. Die hard JBL fans have said that the old school XPL200 with active crossovers sounds better than the M2 when dealing with compromised recordings.
---------
When you are cross comparing speakers, instead of comparing vanilla, French vanilla ice cream, frozen yogurt and soft serve from different vendors, you probably want to try a few different STYLES of speakers too.

Not included in this list are the omnipolar designs like MBL’s. Buying a cheap Canon wide dispersion speaker off eBay is very insightful. Even Amir commented that the dispersion makes a negative scoring speaker sound much better than you think. The MBL brings that kind of dispersion with quality transducers.

mbl 101E Radialstrahler loudspeaker Measurements

Sidebar 3: Measurements

www.stereophile.com

Last, although I think speaker brand matching is less critical than companies suggest, it still helps for home theater. Going with Revel, KEF, JBL, Genelec will make it easier to build a surround sound system. Going with Magico, Magnepan, MBL changes your options for matching your speakers.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I went through a similar journey: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...genelec-8351b-w371a-vs-ultimate-preamp.19859/
In the end I chose none of the initial speakers I considered.
My short list would be (in no particular order):

1. ATC SCM150ASL
2. Kef Blade 2 (medium room) or 1 (large room)
3. One of the ME Geithain (811/901/etc)
4. Perlisten S7t
5. Genelec the Ones + W371A

I really like the Perlisten S7t that I have. They go very low when next to wall. They are also very loud and clear with a bigger than life image.
The ATC SCM150ASL and Genelec 8351B+W371A are impressive. Kef Blade can be auditioned at BestBuy

 

[dkinric]

Your Perlisten S7t were recently reviewed in Stereophile by our own @Kal Rubinson :

Perlisten S7t loudspeaker

I received an email from a longtime press representative I've known for years, telling me about a new loudspeaker company he's representing. The company is bursting from the gates with a line of products that includes floorstanders, standmounts, wallmounts, surrounds, center channels, and a...

www.stereophile.com

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Your Perlisten S7t were recently reviewed in Stereophile by our own @Kal Rubinson :

Perlisten S7t loudspeaker

I received an email from a longtime press representative I've known for years, telling me about a new loudspeaker company he's representing. The company is bursting from the gates with a line of products that includes floorstanders, standmounts, wallmounts, surrounds, center channels, and a...

www.stereophile.com

Perlisten has received a lot of praise: https://www.perlistenaudio.com/news-articles/

 

[srrxr71]

Perlisten has received a lot of praise: https://www.perlistenaudio.com/news-articles/

Best looking speakers IMHO and impressive performance. That wave guide looks really cool and the woven woofers just look great.

 

[Kal Rubinson]

Your Perlisten S7t were recently reviewed in Stereophile by our own @Kal Rubinson :

Perlisten S7t loudspeaker

I received an email from a longtime press representative I've known for years, telling me about a new loudspeaker company he's representing. The company is bursting from the gates with a line of products that includes floorstanders, standmounts, wallmounts, surrounds, center channels, and a...

www.stereophile.com

Yup but I bought the Blades.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

None of your suggestions are “end-game” but you can pretend so…

KH420 is a 10 inch woofer mid-field speaker not suitable SPL for application but very high performance

"not suitable SPL for application" - Actually, you may be right here. The full space spec is 116dB, but the bass is limited to 110dB at 3%THD. So this speaker may not be able to produce the 105dB required for film without bass compression in OP's room.

M2 two way horn PA type speaker
4367 is a two way horn PA type speaker
S360 10” two way PA type speaker

How do you define PA speaker, the presence of a waveguide? These speakers all have superbly controlled frequency response, superbly controlled directivity, and good bass extension. There are no compromises seen in a typical PA speaker here.

1236A suitable for application but only less than 3% distortion at 95db SPL at 1 meter above 3KHZ makes this more of a PA design (extremely loud but not market leading low distortion)
1238 - same as above loud enough but not market leading low distortion

1237a and 1238a are capable of 950W total output at less than 0.01% THD. ATC doesn't even publish distortion specifications.

Large 5” woofers aren’t ideal for mid range....

This is not accurate

... (beam starts at 1800 Hz) but will indeed play loud - especially two of them - again more of a concert PA type approach as some lobes will be present when sharing the same bandwidth.

This is not important, only the directivity characteristics of the finished speaker are important.

Horns suffer from distortion due to non-linearity of air at the throat. This affects sound at high SPL and means distortion is high at elevated SPL - might not be noticed by your average wedding crowd who find DJ speakers acceptable but not exactly “end-game”

Distortion for the above examples (m2, 4367) is below the threshold of audibility, so who cares? Just because you can measure something doesn't mean it matters.

There is no ‘fetish’ - large ATC actually do what they do and very well which is why they keep being installed. Reliability and maintainability is a factor in an end-game speaker - and this alone rules out most of the OP‘s short list. JBL parts are easy enough to find but they aren’t the most reliable. Genelec do have a great reputation for reliability.

Amir's measurements of the $4000 ATC SCM19 are frankly embarrassing. ATC doesn't bother to publish any frequency response or directivity data, so why should we believe their other speakers are any better?

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

Perlisten has received a lot of praise: https://www.perlistenaudio.com/news-articles/

The stereophile measurements are not promising. Hot bass with no extension and that resonance at 10kHz. For $18k that's a hard pass.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

The stereophile measurements are not promising. Hot bass with no extension and that resonance at 10kHz. For $18k that's a hard pass.
View attachment 238322

Erin has measured S4b and had a different reaction: (https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/perlisten_s4b/ )

The directivity index is really remarkable, showing a nice linear increase above the midrange with only a few very minor points where the linearity would shift ever-so-slightly. Comparing this to other speakers I have measured, I’d say this might be the best I have measured thus far. It performs better than the LS50 Wireless II (which features a single coincident driver). The only other speaker this compares to in regard to the early reflections directivity index is the Dutch & Dutch 8C.

The midrange clarity is unrivaled by any speaker I have heard to date.

Take a look at the measurements from audioholics and others too. You may be too quick in your judgement.

Speaking of bass (from audioholics):

They are a true full-range speaker with solid bass down to 20Hz, and they do NOT need a subwoofer at all for low-end assistance. Adding subs can still be beneficial in smoothing out room modes, but they aren’t going to add a lot more dynamic range unless you like extremely hot bass.

 

[NYfan2]

Always entertaining the discussions on ASR.
The OP asks some advice on loudspeakers, from his shortlist it's obvious that he has done his homework and is looking for the more neutral/analytical sounding loudspeakers. And after a few pages the ATC fanboys start to pop up, and the ATC haters react, same with the horn lovers vs. horn haters.

Luckily some people still give sensible and good advice.

 

[Duke]

Always entertaining the discussions on ASR.
The OP asks some advice on loudspeakers, from his shortlist it's obvious that he has done his homework and is looking for the more neutral/analytical sounding loudspeakers. And after a few pages the ATC fanboys start to pop up, and the ATC haters react, same with the horn lovers vs. horn haters.

Luckily some people still give sensible and good advice.

Science is not a democracy. Minority opinions are not necessarily incorrect.

 

[Speaker_tweaker]

Erin has measured S4b and had a different reaction: (https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/loudspeakers/perlisten_s4b/ )

The directivity index is really remarkable, showing a nice linear increase above the midrange with only a few very minor points where the linearity would shift ever-so-slightly. Comparing this to other speakers I have measured, I’d say this might be the best I have measured thus far. It performs better than the LS50 Wireless II (which features a single coincident driver). The only other speaker this compares to in regard to the early reflections directivity index is the Dutch & Dutch 8C.

The midrange clarity is unrivaled by any speaker I have heard to date.

Take a look at the measurements from audioholics and others too. You may be too quick in your judgement.

Speaking of bass (from audioholics):

They are a true full-range speaker with solid bass down to 20Hz, and they do NOT need a subwoofer at all for low-end assistance. Adding subs can still be beneficial in smoothing out room modes, but they aren’t going to add a lot more dynamic range unless you like extremely hot bass.

S4b looks nice, but I really don't think the performance justifies the price. Excellent on axis FR and directivity, but an F₃ of 75Hz and an SPL of 84.5dB? At $8k I am having trouble seeing the value here.

The stereophile LF measurements are problematic. The link you shared (https://www.audioholics.com/tower-speaker-reviews/perlisten-s7t/conclusion) has a better groundplane measurement, but it's still rolls off really early. This seems not ideal for a large room like that of OP, but I don't really know.

 

[AudioJester]

Speaking of bass (from audioholics):

They are a true full-range speaker with solid bass down to 20Hz, and they do NOT need a subwoofer at all for low-end assistance. Adding subs can still be beneficial in smoothing out room modes, but they aren’t going to add a lot more dynamic range unless you like extremely hot bass

How come this does not show in the graphs? Is the very low output the result of room gain? Or is the bass hump colouring subjective impressions?
Personally I find a speaker with real measured low output sounds better, but would love to change my mind by litening to Perlisten.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

How come this does not show in the graphs? Is the very low output the result of room gain? Or is the bass hump colouring subjective impressions?
Personally I find a speaker with real measured low output sounds better, but would love to change my mind by litening to Perlisten.

Fair!
Anechoic measurements show the low / deep bass missing. However in a "normal" setting (a room) the 4 drivers (7 inch drivers) have excellent gain by the virtue of covering multiple spots in the room (different height). This yields to a great sounding speaker. Not very different than other towers in this respect. In my thread above S7t is compared to Revel Salon 2 (which has similar bass measurements in an anechoic chamber).
In my rather large and complicated room I have flat response to 20Hz for the speaker at half space. The one at quarter space (corner) has +3 to +8 db above horizontal between 30Hz to 100Hz and I have to correct down.

 

[AudioJester]

Fair!
Anechoic measurements show the low / deep bass missing. However in a "normal" setting (a room) the 4 drivers (7 inch drivers) have excellent gain by the virtue of covering multiple spots in the room (different height). This yields to a great sounding speaker. Not very different than other towers in this respect. In my thread above S7t is compared to Revel Salon 2 (which has similar bass measurements in an anechoic chamber).
In my rather large and complicated room I have flat response to 20Hz for the speaker at half space. The one at quarter space (corner) has +3 to +8 db above horizontal between 30Hz to 100Hz and I have to correct down.

View attachment 238507

Thanks, Iam learning from this. Is bass room gain high in distortion though?