me geithain rl-901k2 vs ATC SCM150ASL vs Genelec 8351b + W371A vs Ultimate Preamp

[Deleted member 4708]

(As one can see in my signature) I have an NHT XDA 2.2 system from 2010(ish?). I enjoyed it for all these years - it is a very good system in my opinion. However, upgradatis has bit me again and I am looking to buy a new system. On my short list I have:

1. ATC SCM150ASL - 20k$ + an external DSP box like SHD.
   Here I like the sound, drivers, look and simplicity. Active, analogue crossover and AB class amps.
2. me-geithain rl-901k2
   Cardiod and good measurements. High WAF given it is one box.
3. Genelec 8351b + w371A or just 8361A
   Ease of use is very appealing for this system. I like the dispersion measurements. Yet to hear this system (in the next days or few weeks).
   Not impressed with the distortion measurements nor the loudness. Not impressed with the drivers, the build nor components, it looks a bit generic to me. The biggest gripe I have are the small(ish) oval bass drivers in both 8351B and 8361A. In the SPL graphs they "fall" behind - that's the weakest link of this system imo.
4. Ultimate Preamp (5k$) + ATI amp (5-7 k$) + Alpha Divine to build a system somewhat better than the one I have. Or - maybe there is another speaker I can use with the Ultimate Preamp.
   This build gives me a lot of flexibility in terms of DSP.
   The negative here - there will be a lot of wires and boxes. The speaker build is not to my liking due to 7" mid that has to be crossed to a 1" tweeter. Either the tweeter will be strained when crossover is low (2kHz) or the mid loses dispersion (2.5Khz or above).

What's your opinion on these 3 systems? What's your experience with any of the above?

 

[PaulD]

The only comment that I can make is that I have had the Ultimate Preamp for several years and I am very happy with it. I use it to do the xover for the subs in my system, and I noticed that the digital xover filter in it sounded considerably better than the previous active analogue electronic xover I used. My only criticism of it is the DSP needs a PC to program it, and I only have Macs... This is a limitation of the Audioweaver DSP system that it uses, not something the designer has much control over.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

The only comment that I can make is that I have had the Ultimate Preamp for several years and I am very happy with it. I use it to do the xover for the subs in my system, and I noticed that the digital xover filter in it sounded considerably better than the previous analogue electronic xover i used. My only criticism of it is the DSP needs a PC to program it, and I only have Macs... This is a limitation of the Audioweaver DSP system that it uses, not something the designer has much control over.

In your comparison - are you referring to passive or active analogue xover?

 

[PaulD]

In your comparison - are you referring to passive or active analogue xover?

It was active, a classic and competent design. I will update my post to make it clear.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

It was active, a classic and competent design. I will update my post to make it clear.

Another question if I may: Are you aware of any other speakers that can be used for digital xover like the XTZ Alpha Divine?
For me this (Ultimate Preamp) is the ideal solution but I can't seem to find others and the XTZ is less than ideal I think.

 

[PaulD]

Another question if I may: Are you aware of any other speakers that can be used for digital xover like the XTZ Alpha Divine?
For me this (Ultimate Preamp) is the ideal solution but I can't seem to find others and the XTZ is less than ideal I think.

Sorry, no. It is a fully programmable DSP solution with 8 outputs so you can build up to a 4-way stereo system with it. I designed my own filters, which was not too difficult even though I do not use Windows (I do know enough DSP to use Audioweaver). If you are skilled enough wth DSP then you can build any xover for any speaker (up to 4 way) that you can bypass the inbuilt xover. There must be a number of units on the market that would suit.

 

[jae]

What about d&d 8c? Comparable price to 8361As. Similar continuous SPL but not sure about peak measurements, however.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

What about d&d 8c? Comparable price to 8361As. Similar continuous SPL but not sure about peak measurements, however.

Crossing over 8 inch driver to the tweeter? No amount of DSP will fix that. If it had a proper mid driver like Genelec and other speakers, I'd be tempted. I'd like to see a100db SPL thd measurement for this speaker, as I believe it won't be pretty.

 

[Mnyb]

Crossing over 8 inch driver to the tweeter? No amount of DSP will fix that. If it had a proper mid driver like Genelec and other speakers, I'd be tempted. I'd like to see a100db SPL thd measurement for this speaker, as I believe it won't be pretty.

Hmm the D&D has a very large wave guide/horn for the tweeter that increases its load ability at lover frequencies and as function of that a rather low xover frequency to make the dispersion match the woofer , so they don't have to fix in DSP its fixed by the acoustics of the speaker. There are measurements of this speaker that actually shows this . I have not seen any distortion figures thou ?
There are some posters on this forum that have experience of this speaker and that also measured it ? maybe a search ?

 

[Purité Audio]

The 8C is a far far better speaker than the forty year old ATC design, I haven’t had the opportunity to compare the new Gen combo yet.
Keith

 

[Deleted member 4708]

The 8C is a far far better speaker than the forty year old ATC design, I haven’t had the opportunity to compare the new Gen combo yet.
Keith

I considered it, read about it and decided I'm not interested; hence the short list.

 

[Gregm]

I can offer an empirical opinion on the ATC 150 & the Gen 8361A if interested. I have listened to these, driven by the same equipment, in the same room and playing msotly the same music -- but not side by side.
The short answer is that, while both were excellent on many counts (don't be put off by the Gen's flimsy/cheapo looking construction, they do rock), I preferred the ATC.

 

[Purité Audio]

I considered it, read about it and decided I'm not interested; hence the short list.

Not interested in better sound quality?
Aesthetics are important I suppose.
Keith

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Not interested in better sound quality?
Aesthetics are important I suppose.
Keith

I am not willing to test v1.0 of any speakers from a company with (almost) no history. Not for 12k$.
While D&D 8C does look Ikea style, the Genelecs are far from lookers and neither is the archaic looking ATC 150. Looks are not important, I am paying for sound and a proven company that will (hopefully) be around to service the speaker I buy.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

I can offer an empirical opinion on the ATC 150 & the Gen 8361A if interested. I have listened to these, driven by the same equipment, in the same room and playing msotly the same music -- but not side by side.
The short answer is that, while both were excellent on many counts (don't be put off by the Gen's flimsy/cheapo looking construction, they do rock), I preferred the ATC.

Thanks for your reply. Could you be more explicit as to why you preferred the ATC 150 over the Genelec 8361A? Just curios - even if it is subjective.

 

[q3cpma]

[*]ATC SCM150ASL - 20k$ + an external DSP box like SHD.
Here I like the sound, drivers, look and simplicity. Active, analogue crossover and AB class amps.

Not too bad, but clearly obsolete considering its price. Neumann's KH420 has all of these advantages without the inconvenients (lack of bass, more distortion, disappointing dispersion, NO OFFICIAL MEASUREMENTS), at half the price.

[*]Genelec 8351b + w371A or just 8361A
Ease of use is very appealing for this system. I like the dispersion measurements. Yet to hear this system (in the next days or few weeks).
Not impressed with the distortion measurements nor the loudness.

What's wrong with it? The soundandrecording.de measurements for the 8361A shows no weakness on that front; compared to Neumann's KH420, you get as much bass, 3-4 dB less headroom in the mids and 5-10 dB in the treble (not that important when you know the average musical spectrum).
Even more absurd if you consider the W371A too.

Not impressed with the drivers

The midrange is impressive and the woofers aren't bad at all, when you inspect the aforementioned comparison with the KH420.

the build

What? Genelec's build is one of its best points, with die cast alumiunium cabinets shaped exactly for sonic advantages (less diffraction, wholly integrated waveguide, greater internal/external volume, optimal bracing).

nor components

You mean the electronics? The 8351B dissassembly on this forum showed a good attention to detail, with Rubycon and WIMA caps on the board (a big Samwha too =|).

it looks a bit generic to me.

"Generic" is probably the wrong word, as you can certainly recognize them. "Bland", maybe?

The biggest gripe I have are the small(ish) oval bass drivers in both 8351B and 8361A. In the SPL graphs they "fall" behind - that's the weakest link of this system imo.

See above, this is wrong.

[*]Ultimate Preamp (5k$) + ATI amp (5-7 k$) + Alpha Divine to build a system somewhat better than the one I have. Or - maybe there is another speaker I can use with the Ultimate Preamp.
This build gives me a lot of flexibility in terms of DSP.
The negative here - there will be a lot of wires and boxes. The speaker build is not to my liking due to 7" mid that has to be crossed to a 1" tweeter. Either the tweeter will be strained when crossover is low (2kHz) or the mid loses dispersion (2.5Khz or above).
[/LIST]

Probably not as good. If I were to go passive for that budget, I'd take KEF's best stuff and a Purifi or Benchmark amp.

Have you considered the Kii three + BXT or GGNTKT M2 too? ME Geithain's RL901K should also interest you. Personally, for your budget, I wouldn't consider something without near-perfect measurements and at least one of these: coaxial layout and LF directivity control.

 

[Deleted member 4708]

Not too bad, but clearly obsolete considering its price. Neumann's KH420 has all of these advantages without the inconvenients (lack of bass, more distortion, disappointing dispersion, NO OFFICIAL MEASUREMENTS), at half the price.

What's wrong with it? The soundandrecording.de measurements for the 8361A shows no weakness on that front; compared to Neumann's KH420, you get as much bass, 3-4 dB less headroom in the mids and 5-10 dB in the treble (not that important when you know the average musical spectrum).
Even more absurd if you consider the W371A too.

The midrange is impressive and the woofers aren't bad at all, when you inspect the aforementioned comparison with the KH420.

What? Genelec's build is one of its best points, with die cast alumiunium cabinets shaped exactly for sonic advantages (less diffraction, wholly integrated waveguide, greater internal/external volume, optimal bracing).

You mean the electronics? The 8351B dissassembly on this forum, shows a good attention to detail, with Rubycon and WIMA caps on the board (a big Samwha too =|).

"Generic" is probably the wrong word, as you can certainly recognize them. "Bland", maybe?

See above, this is wrong.

Probably not as good. If I were to go passive for that budget, I'd take KEF's best stuff and a Purifi or Benchmark amp.

Have you considered the Kii three + BXT too? ME Geithain's RL901K should also interest you. Personally, for your budget, I wouldn't consider something without near-perfect measurements and at least one of these: coaxial layout and LF directivity control.

Thanks for your replies. Your advice ( I wouldn't consider something without near-perfect measurements and at least one of these: coaxial layout and LF directivity control) resonated with me.
As for going passive - no no no. Alpha Divine has defeatable crossover and it has good drivers.

 

[black_flag]

Why not both

 

[q3cpma]

As for going passive - no no no. Alpha Divine has defeatable crossover and it has good drivers.

It doesn't look bad, to be honest, but no measurements = no buy from me, even if were to win the lottery. Too much choice from actually expert and/or honest manufacturers like Genelec and Neumann to consider the alternative of "mystery performances".

Because even when it looks right (i.e. credible waveguide design/driver size/crossover frequencies), some stuff is hard to get right, like bass reflex.

 

[Frank Dernie]

I am not willing to test v1.0 of any speakers from a company with (almost) no history. Not for 12k$.
While D&D 8C does look Ikea style, the Genelecs are far from lookers and neither is the archaic looking ATC 150. Looks are not important, I am paying for sound and a proven company that will (hopefully) be around to service the speaker I buy.

I have the same concern in general but Dutch & Dutch are in many ways similar to ATC when it started up and their proprietor is still a young man whereas how long will it be before Billy Youngman retires and how may ATC change then?