CHORD M-Scaler Review (Upsampler)

[bearcatsandor]

Well, sort of, yes, perhaps no—but great! That’s my Cliff’s Notes summary of Amir’s analysis in that piece (which was expertly done). It doesn’t really address the particular fallacy in dispute here, and it largely concluded that the extant data on high resolution audio is comprised of a bunch of poorly-designed studies on both sides, which basically means no data. I finally embraced his concluding point that higher resolution formats bring us better quality masters and left it there.

Either way, Nyquist calculations aside It seems that we’d all have to gulp hard to dismiss any claims of benefit above 44/16 sampling when there’s scarcely been a DAC reviewed on this site in quite some time that doesn’t resolve sampling frequencies as high as 384

"Better quality masters." It's true, that a lot of the 24-bit releases are marketed as being sourced from studio masters. To me that's awesome, speaking as a person that likes to collect Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab CDs. However, just because it was sourced from an original master, doesn't mean that they did any good with it. My iron maiden CDs have a higher dynamic range than the 2015 24-bit releases, even though those 24-bit releases were apparently sourced from the original masters and my CDs weren't. I don't have the numbers on me at the moment, but I can look them up when I get home if anybody cares.

 

[tmtomh]

You would think that for $6K they could have each unit sitting on a shelf for 4 days to ... ahem... "burn in" before shipping to the customer but apparently, shelf space and power is too expensive.

The shipping process requantumizes the components, so even if they burned it in at the factory, it would have to be re-burned in for 100 hours once it was set up in the end-user's home. In fact, if the owner moves it to another room or changes interconnects it has to be burned in again. That's why Amir's measurements didn't show its special powers: he didn't re-burn it for 100 hours. Plus putting an AP Analyzer in the chain is well-known to un-burn any Chord device because of the FGPA and all the taps. Obviously. Duh.

 

[DonR]

The shipping process requantumizes the components, so even if they burned it in at the factory, it would have to be re-burned in for 100 hours once it was set up in the end-user's home. In fact, if the owner moves it to another room or changes interconnects it has to be burned in again. That's why Amir's measurements didn't show its special powers: he didn't re-burn it for 100 hours. Plus putting an AP Analyzer in the chain is well-known to un-burn any Chord device because of the FGPA and all the taps. Obviously. Duh.

D'oh

 

[bearcatsandor]

Burn in? I understand the need for speakers and headphones to burn in because they have moving components, but even then that's usually done at the factory.

I've always built my own computers. If digital devices like digital to analog converters needed to be burned in, then every computer that I've ever built would also have to be burned in. Am I supposed to sit there with my computer on, printing the contents of a directory for a week? And until it has sat there printing the contents of the directory to a screen for 100 hours I can expect some of the file names to be spelled incorrectly, or something? I really don't understand the logic of this.

 

[amirm]

Burn in? I understand the need for speakers and headphones to burn in because they have moving components, but even then that's usually done at the factory.

They think everything is like old car engines and needs to "break in." Lay intuition is such a dangerous thing.

 

[Snake Oil is life]

He invites Rob Watts to respond to my review. Yet Rob doesn't bother to read my review to know what to address??? Why not pause the interview and let him read the review and then continue? If he had read the interview, he would have known that I also performed listening tests
BTW, he threw buzzwords out there at 100 miles/hour. I am confident none of the people watching his channel and commenting has any idea what he is saying (and fallacies within).

His claims about small noises modulations at -301 dB is pure nonsense. The ears are not capable of hearing low volumes like theses , how the brain can interpret them ? But the best part was his explanation of dithering and noise shaping, the reviewer is completely lost as he throw "scientific" terms one after another. I've tried to make sense of it but it's complete gibberish.

 

[JohnA]

M SCALER required around 100 hours to come around (even more pronounced than Hugo TT2).

DAVE with or without M SCALER was a bit too analytical for my liking but I can understand the appeal.

That's what they were telling me on HeadFi, to wait until it 'beds in', listen for a couple of weeks with MScaler and then take it off and feel the loss of magic.
And I tried it like an idiot, that's how desperate I was to make a case for the MScaler in my system.
All this delay achieved was to miss my return window (4weeks) and the shop would then only buy it back at a huge discount (£2000 instead of £3000).

"Too analytical" what does it even mean? Warm but not clinical? Blacker blacks? Mindgames...

 

[amirm]

His claims about small noises modulations at -301 dB is pure nonsense. The ears are not capable of hearing low volumes like theses , how the brain can interpret them ?

Funny there that he keeps referencing psychoacoustics and "how the brain works." Yet we are provided no back up for any of this.

FYI I asked him at one of his seminars if his testing is blind. He said no that it creates too much stress. So the statement about "thousands of listening tests" he has conducted holds no water.

 

[JohnA]

His claims about small noises modulations at -301 dB is pure nonsense. The ears are not capable of hearing low volumes like theses , how the brain can interpret them ?

I am prepared to give Rob the benefit of the doubt on this one. Our understanding of the brain is primitive and we have no proof that his claim is incorrect.
...But neither do we have any proof (or even indication!) that the claim is correct.

Nobody has managed to pick up any of these nuances in a proper blind test, not even Rob.
So the burden of proof is on his side..

 

[Snake Oil is life]

Stress ? Funny response... I love also at the end how he talk about his experience on live music... Sounded to me like a complete amateur in sound diffusion . When you're in a concert sound comes also to your brain by your chest , your bones. He talks about psychoacoustics but seems unaware of this.

 

[Lukino]

Many of these expensive devices were not designed for measurements but for profit....that once Amir measured them they didn't count with that....Then they start weaving nonsense and half-truths in the videos...to sweep away the buyer...and they kept believers. Thanks for your dedicated complex work Amir.

 

[DSJR]

Most of the presentation Rob W gave us was regards 'Noise Floor Modulation.'

I'd like a simple explanation for this and also, how modern basic dacs perform in this area.

Sadly, I wasn't able to do a personal comparison with the well burned in (!!!) demonstrator M-Scaler working or bypassed, but the dem we were given by the Chord rep showed a palpable difference on the track I linked to way up the thread, although as I say again, the level seemed slightly quieter.

 

[Dogcoop]

That's what they were telling me on HeadFi, to wait until it 'beds in', listen for a couple of weeks with MScaler and then take it off and feel the loss of magic.
And I tried it like an idiot, that's how desperate I was to make a case for the MScaler in my system.
All this delay achieved was to miss my return window (4weeks) and the shop would then only buy it back at a huge discount (£2000 instead of £3000).

"Too analytical" what does it even mean? Warm but not clinical? Blacker blacks? Mindgames...

Didn’t one of the most prolific posters there tell you that all you needed were his ’magical’ cables?

 

[Purité Audio]

If one had the inclination one might check the original directors of that particular cable company, one of the cables most fervent supporters although he doesn’t mention the fact that he was a co-director, guess that is just how modern marketing works.
Keith

 

[Deleted member 19122]

Hello:

I've been using TT2 & M Scaler through KEF Blade Speakers and an A-S3200 Yamaha Integrated for a while now.
M SCALER required around 100 hours to come around (even more pronounced than Hugo TT2).

DAVE with or without M SCALER was a bit too analytical for my liking but I can understand the appeal.

My Source is a home-built (pc-based) A/V Server with SoTM components (clock and dedicated USB).
I primarily listen to FLAC and DSD files from SSD.

With M Scaler turned onto "High", it sounds fantastic; there exists a musical realism that simply isn't there with it bypassed or eliminated from the equipment chain.
The "Maximum" Upscale setting on M SCALER I didn't care for.

I've just glanced at a few of the comments above and I don't know what else to say except I'd like to drop a quote from A. Einstein- "Not everything that can be counted counts and not everything that counts can be counted".

On a side-note, I did read an article about Speaker Cables and because the MEASURABLE differences were small between the various cables, the human-ear couldn't possibly detect a difference, according to the Author of the testing. Several cables later I found this simply wasn't true and finally settled on what I liked.

That article reminded me of the quote.

Lots of variables and opinions in high(er)-end Audio which (in part), makes it an interesting Hobby.

Did you get lost on the way to The Absolute Sound...We here don't believe in voodoo.Burn in,cable differences
.The stuff of fools and the charlatans who profit from it.

 

[axbarker]

I watched the Rob Watts and down under reviewer who can hear differences between USB cables and the "benefits" of the M scaler.

First a few declarations: I have a PhD in electrical engineering, researched into the application of digital filters utilising their "transient" impulse response characteristics as well as their "steady state" responses (in a non-audio application). I own and I am very pleased with a Chord Qutest DAC. I am also a very big supported of the "ASR approach".

I was very disappointed with Rob Watt's "explanations". I don't understand from a fundamental basis how he differentiates the "transient" response of a filter from its steady state performance. Both are wedded together through the filters impulse response, therefore frequency response does tell the whole story UNLESS Rob Watts has incorporated certain non-linear responses into his design. Normally such non-linear effects, such as limiting, are detrimental to sound quality.

I find the credibility of "unknown brain effects at sub 120 dB levels" very difficult to be convinced about.

The pricing of the M Scaler is just so difficult to swallow - can our down under friend really hear a difference in USB and M Scaler applications or is he just a Rob fan boy?

 

[Lukino]

Rob Watts indirectly confirmed Amir's measurements because he didn't present anything from the measurements in the video and behind him you can see a lot of measuring devices and nothing... When Amir measures, they go to talk about how everything can't be measured and so on.....A device for 6000 etc. should have some measurement documentation. To say that it plays well fluidly is not enough nowadays. You can't just insert a resistor into an electronic circuit without taking measurements.

 

[bidn]

Besides Rob Watts' (Chord's engineer) claim that he can hear sound nuances down to -300 dB (someone computed that this corresponds to hearing, while being on planet Earth, the sound of a small stone dropped by someone on the Moon),
here is another incredible thing.

On Head-Fi, someone stated over time in several posts that Rob Watts claims that (re. audio) all his devices do benefit from mechanical isolation, e.g.:

"Rob, does the DAVE benefit from mechanical isolation (Stillpoints, etc)?"

"Yes all products do."

in big posts such as:

CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

This stuff seems to work pretty well. I'll admit there was some scotch involved last night so more listening is needed but my initial reaction is, "Uh-oh..." Dangerous comments..... For my wallet!! :)

www.head-fi.org

CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

Is there any issues driving efficient speakers using the RCA outputs of Dave? If you're dead set on driving speakers directly with the DAVE, it is possible but you have to be creative. With very high-efficiency speakers like a Klipsch horn speaker (efficiency up to 105 dB) and...

www.head-fi.org

Watts has been active on that thread but never disclaimed this.
So I assume that he would stand behind such unscientific viewpoints which amount to me to charlatanism. How could you take him seriously if this is true?

However I did not find the original, incredible statements (re. mechanical isolation) by Watts himself, I would appreciate if someone could find them or similar ones by the Chord company.

Thank you in in advance.

 

[axbarker]

Besides Rob Watts' (Chord's engineer) claim that he can hear sound nuances down to -300 dB (someone computed that this corresponds to hearing, while being on planet Earth, the sound of a small stone dropped by someone on the Moon),
here is another incredible thing.

On Head-Fi, someone stated over time in several posts that Rob Watts claims that (re. audio) all his devices do benefit from mechanical isolation, e.g.:


in big posts such as:

CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

This stuff seems to work pretty well. I'll admit there was some scotch involved last night so more listening is needed but my initial reaction is, "Uh-oh..." Dangerous comments..... For my wallet!! :)

www.head-fi.org

CHORD ELECTRONICS DAVE

Is there any issues driving efficient speakers using the RCA outputs of Dave? If you're dead set on driving speakers directly with the DAVE, it is possible but you have to be creative. With very high-efficiency speakers like a Klipsch horn speaker (efficiency up to 105 dB) and...

www.head-fi.org

Watts has been active on that thread but never disclaimed this.
So I assume that he would stand behind such unscientific viewpoints which amount to me to charlatanism. How could you take him seriously if this is true?

However I did not find the original, incredible statements (re. mechanical isolation) by Watts himself, I would appreciate if someone could find them or similar ones by the Chord company.

Thank you in in advance.

" - in case of metal/metal interfaces it degrades detail resolution and the perception of depth. So going balanced will have a cost in transparency" This is just crazy stuff. Thanks for the link to some great Rob quotes. Its sad that such an enjoyable hobby has this kicking around. Imagine trying to rationalise this statement - let alone measure such an effect. What was that - another stone dropping on the moon? And then I play Led Zeppelin

 

[Snake Oil is life]

Rob Watts indirectly confirmed Amir's measurements because he didn't present anything from the measurements in the video and behind him you can see a lot of measuring devices and nothing... When Amir measures, they go to talk about how everything can't be measured and so on.....A device for 6000 etc. should have some measurement documentation. To say that it plays well fluidly is not enough nowadays. You can't just insert a resistor into an electronic circuit without taking measurements.

what measures are you talking about ? Watts said himself that the benefits can't be measured , you have to trust his non-blind tests .... if there is a device capable of measuring -301dB i'm not aware of its existence ...