Should more emphasis be given to speaker (& driver) size in reviews + what is the ethos of this site?

[tomtoo]

However you won’t get any louder than around 80dBSPL at 40Hz, with two of them and a bit of help from the room you can not reach 90dBSPL even.

Exactly what i said Desktop speakers.

 

[sarumbear]

It is speculation that the user will be employing subs, that is speculation. When we take it as a given, how does it calculate for subs of unknown ability, quantity and integration?

Please read about the preference score to understand it.

I thought you was of the opinion the preference score didn't work, at least not well enough, didn't you start a thread to that effect?

I didn’t say score doesn’t work. I said I lost trust with it. Its not the same. I am an experienced speaker designer with multiple degrees related to speakers. In order to critique something you must understand it first.

 

[tomtoo]

It is speculation that the user will be employing subs, that is speculation. When we take it as a given, how does it calculate for subs of unknown ability, quantity and integration?

I thought you was of the opinion the preference score didn't work, at least not well enough, didn't you start a thread to that effect?

What you want is one number that tells you if a Porsche911 or a pickup truck is the better car for you usage. Easy to see that this is not possible.

 

[audiofooled]

This car would be suitable for your average 2,2 children. If you try and squeeze the 3 you will be having difficulties closing the doors and reaching top speed on a steep gradient.

 

[tomtoo]

This car would be suitable for your average 2,2 children. If you try and squeeze the 3 you will be having difficulties closing the doors and reaching top speed on a steep gradient.

More bad, you can not even transport your weekly beer consume.

 

[mhardy6647]

This car would be suitable for your average 2,2 children. If you try and squeeze the 3 you will be having difficulties closing the doors and reaching top speed on a steep gradient.

We had a cat who was grey on the average.

 

[Spkrdctr]

It shouldn't be hard to get because I am saying exactly what you say but you are arguing.

Two people agreeing, yet still arguing. That is pure ASR gold right there. Every day all day long!

 

[Nexus99]

I'd say that the vast majority of readers here don't really know how to apply all the measurements to real world scenarios. The small speaker / subwoofer point is very good. Also, people bickering about inaudible distortion in DACs, etc. is a good example. Its important to know what is irrelevant so a useful consumer evaluation can be made.

 

[dlaloum]

There are loads of "full range" floor standers out there, which reach their -3db point before 30Hz - and have always been considered by the fraternity at large as "full range"

A Subwoofer should be filling in that bottom zone ... if it is stretching up above 50 or 60 Hz it really isn't a subwoofer any more, but a woofer

In most Sub / Satellite systems, the Sub is absolutely NOT a subwoofer - the designer is merely taking advantage of our inability to localise lower frequencies by building a system based around a single woofer unit with dual Mid/high "bookshelf" (or "lifestyle") speakers.

I'd argue that the arrival of the HT LFE channel combined with the preponderance of lifestyle mini speaker HT systems has led to the proliferation of seperate box woofers, and the popularisation of the term "subwoofer" for these, when in fact the vast majority are "just" woofers. - The Home Theatre "Norms" further reinforce these (after all, those norms are heavily influenced by marketing requirements!) - THX crossover @ 80Hz.

Has the definition (or common usage) for a "full range" speaker shifted? - would the Full Range speakers of the 70's and 80's now be considered oversized bookshelf speakers?

 

[sarumbear]

A Subwoofer should be filling in that bottom zone ... if it is stretching up above 50 or 60 Hz it really isn't a subwoofer any more, but a woofer

You are free to define anything as you please for yourself but for the industry and the market a subwoofer is expected to operate at the very least to 80Hz,

In most Sub / Satellite systems, the Sub is absolutely NOT a subwoofer - the designer is merely taking advantage of our inability to localise lower frequencies by building a system based around a single woofer unit with dual Mid/high "bookshelf" (or "lifestyle") speakers.

Bingo. That is why they use a subwoofer.

 

[Digby]

Please read about the preference score to understand it.

Have a specific link/paper?

I can read about it, yes, but what is stopping you from defining it such that I may understand without having to read academic papers, which leads me onto...

I didn’t say score doesn’t work. I said I lost trust with it. Its not the same. I am an experienced speaker designer with multiple degrees related to speakers. In order to critique something you must understand it first.

You are a speaker designer with multiple degrees related to speakers. I am not, nor do I want to do the kind and amount of reading that if I did it at university, I too may have multiple degrees on the subject. Should I just stop using the forum or is there some middle ground that exists?

I do get the feeling that your response will be "you don't understand, read this", followed by "you don't understand, read that". No, I don't understand, but what would be really clever is if people that do understand, such as yourself, could translate some of this stuff to the layman level (as far a possible), such that multiple degrees related to speakers aren't wholly necessary for meaningful understanding and engagement.

I don't have the time/interest/energy to become educated about the topic to the extent that you are.

Isn't there some middle ground for those not into voodoo, but without 5 to 10 years of their life to throw over to "understanding everything", who just want the best results attainable for their budget/setup without having to blindly trust either experts or salesmen.

A fast track course to understanding, if you will. Massive hole in the market here!

 

[sarumbear]

Have a specific link/paper?

https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=12794
https://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=12847

I don't have the time/interest/energy to become educated about the topic to the extent that you are.

I respect that as long as you also respect the same can be true for me too.

However, @amirm who is very knowledgably kindly posts various articles that explains the issues eloquently. Most of the things he says are about papers published by members of this forum and audio luminaries. If he made a mistake I am sure they vould have corrected him. In a way his posts are peer reviewed.

By using a micro amount of your time you can do forum search and find the following article.

Are Our Preferences Different in Audio?

It seems intuitive that we would all have different tastes in sound reproduction. After all, there are thousands of different brands and models of speakers each with a different sound. Surely that is due to different people liking different sounds. Another fact that bolsters this intuition is...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Here is a thread that members discuss the score.

Preference rating: What score speaker do you use? What can you tolerate? Where do you start to deviate? Where can you hear until?

Referring to MZKM's database. I like the scatterplot: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vRVN63daR6Ph8lxhCDUEHxWq_gwV0wEjL2Q1KRDA0J4i_eE1JS-JQYSZy7kCQZMKtRnjTOn578fYZPJ/pubhtml# I know that my own personal preference generally tracks the rating until around a score of 3 to 4...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Finally, here is the database where you can view scores of each tested speaker. Notice the with subwoofer column.

A collection of loudspeakers measurements

 

[dlaloum]

You are free to define anything as you please for yourself but for the industry and the market a subwoofer is expected to operate at the very least to 80Hz,


Bingo. That is why they use a subwoofer.

Subwoofers long predated the home theatre definitions which specify 80Hz

In simple terms - a traditional "FULL RANGE" - speaker would have a Woofer, midrange and tweeter.

With a Woofer providing the bass, a traditional full range speaker would extend down to at least below 40Hz and often down below 30Hz

By definition, a SUB-Woofer is design to extend the audible range beyond what you get with a Full Range speaker - hence below 40Hz

And yes, marketing likes to re-define terms that are useful to them, frequently making oxymorons in the process.

As an aside, a woofer designed to fill in below 40Hz might well have response up to 80Hz, and obviously for decent response below 40Hz, you would need the crossover to be at 60Hz as a minimum, and probably higher.... which takes us back to 80Hz - as a crossover frequency - but not as a frequency at which the Sub is designed to have substantive output.

 

[sarumbear]

Subwoofers long predated the home theatre definitions which specify 80Hz

In simple terms - a traditional "FULL RANGE" - speaker would have a Woofer, midrange and tweeter.

With a Woofer providing the bass, a traditional full range speaker would extend down to at least below 40Hz and often down below 30Hz

By definition, a SUB-Woofer is design to extend the audible range beyond what you get with a Full Range speaker - hence below 40Hz

And yes, marketing likes to re-define terms that are useful to them, frequently making oxymorons in the process.

As an aside, a woofer designed to fill in below 40Hz might well have response up to 80Hz, and obviously for decent response below 40Hz, you would need the crossover to be at 60Hz as a minimum, and probably higher.... which takes us back to 80Hz - as a crossover frequency - but not as a frequency at which the Sub is designed to have substantive output.

As I said you can call anything you want but that will stop many, like me, not able to communicate with you as you use your own vocabulary.

 

[tomtoo]

Makes no sense to fight about the definiton whats a subwoofer is.

 

[Spkrdctr]

Makes no sense to fight about the definiton whats a subwoofer is.

In the world of audio, I wonder why we don't have more fights over the different colors of speakers coloring the sound.

 

[kokakolia]

In the world of audio, I wonder why we don't have more fights over the different colors of speakers coloring the sound.

I know you're joking but interior design should have a greater importance in the Hi-Fi community.

You immerse yourself more easily into the music when you're comfortable and in a good mood. I'm striving towards creating a cozy listening space.

 

[Sokel]

I know you're joking but interior design should have a greater importance in the Hi-Fi community.

You immerse yourself more easily into the music when you're comfortable and in a good mood. I'm striving towards creating a cozy listening space.

Art combined with art,nice music,nice pictures on the walls,cozy chairs and sofas,nothing can beat that.

 

[kokakolia]

Art combined with art,nice music,nice pictures on the walls,cozy chairs and sofas,nothing can beat that.

Heck yeah! And a nice beverage like a specialty coffee/beer/wine/spirit.

I think speaker companies should take note of that. The Axpona 2022 photos are hideous. Who wants to stand in front of a speaker in a creepy empty hotel room for more than a few minutes? If you're smart you'd partner up with theatre rooms and large restaurants/cafés.

Having a good dinner and listening to expensive speakers at the same time is a huge win.

 

[Sal1950]

I know you're joking but interior design should have a greater importance in the Hi-Fi community.

You immerse yourself more easily into the music when you're comfortable and in a good mood. I'm striving towards creating a cozy listening space.

Art combined with art,nice music,nice pictures on the walls,cozy chairs and sofas,nothing can beat that.

Smokin a fat one, a nice ice tea, then a,
Pitch black room is my preference for listening to music.smokin a fat one