Response to PS Audio on P12 PowerPlant Measurements (Video)

[gerG]

The zombie art is by Rob Sacchetto. Link to his site in my previous post. Funny stuff!

 

[Petroman]

Very well reviewed by Amir. I used to watch Paul's youtube channel and would appreciate his struggles and journey in building his company PS Audio. The first time I smelled something fishy was when in one of his videos he praised "Danny Richie" of GR Research, another "wise guy" who trashes every speaker manufacturer out there and proposes his "correct" crossover and improvement designs to many of his naive customers. We would have commended if Paul could showed some concrete measurements to counter or justify his power plant design which costs pretty high. Instead he settles on personal attacks and non-sense justifications.

 

[CinDyment]

It's pretty clear the inbuilt THD analysis of the PS Audio P-12 powerplant is considerably better than you give it credit for. It is correctly displaying the notched-out residual under magnification, something completely unrelated to the number of pixels on the LCD. It's not an APX-555 and doesn't pretend to be. Take it for what it is.

The line regulation cannot be dismissed and it is trivial to demonstrate with any medium powered amplifier using a traditional linear (transformer/bridge/caps) that a lower supply voltage translates directly to a much lower output power. Also, line regulation serves to prolong the life of filter capacitors, incandescent dial/meter illumination and other components not sitting downstream from a regulator.

Most amplifiers of traditional design (the majority of amplifiers out there likely to use this product), have little to no regulation for their main high current supplies and not much more (other than a RC) for the front ends.

The simple fact of the matter is a low impedance, stable mains voltage supplying your gear is a good thing. PS Audio is supplying a product for sale that does that. That cannot be argued with and still retain credibility. You can choose to buy one or not, but this continual unwarranted attack on the man and the company is unbecoming.

Why not just let it go?

Capacitors within their limits have pretty much the same life at these voltage levels. Decreasing the source (AC) impedance on more strain on the bridge, fuses, and caps.

Low impedance means higher peak currents, potentially more ripple and noise on the DC and more noise on the AC cord (things they claim when selling other products is bad).

 

[CinDyment]

It isn't. It has been pointed out several times, the 'measured' 'impedance' is clearly in error. Do the math.

The power test Amir did suggests impedance in the 0.5-1R range.

 

[TheBatsEar]

Very well reviewed by Amir. I used to watch Paul's youtube channel and would appreciate his struggles and journey in building his company PS Audio. The first time I smelled something fishy was when in one of his videos he praised "Danny Richie" of GR Research, another "wise guy" who trashes every speaker manufacturer out there and proposes his "correct" crossover and improvement designs to many of his naive customers. We would have commended if Paul could showed some concrete measurements to counter or justify his power plant design which costs pretty high. Instead he settles on personal attacks and non-sense justifications.

And welcome to ASR, my dude.

Did you buy any of his hardware?

 

[kencreten]

Sheesh... Nothing in audio is about "science" and there never has been. I enjoy all the hard work this site does and all reviews of products you won't find anywhere else. To equate it to real science is kind of stupid though it's a hobby. So I get both sides. Most of the arguments here are more about much something costs vs real science. Going to listen to some vinyl now...

You're complaining about "Science" and you're going to go listen to vinyl? Apparently you do not care about Science?

 

[CinDyment]

Sheesh... Nothing in audio is about "science" and there never has been. I enjoy all the hard work this site does and all reviews of products you won't find anywhere else. To equate it to real science is kind of stupid though it's a hobby. So I get both sides. Most of the arguments here are more about much something costs vs real science. Going to listen to some vinyl now...

YOUR lack of understanding of the science does not mean it is not about the science. Even preference can be reduced to a science.

 

[CinDyment]

Actually, I didn't buy it, but it does have its uses. That output frequency setting is very convenient when troubleshooting mains frequency leakage, as I can have one component at a time plugged into it and running at, say 70Hz, while the others continue to run on 60.

Can you do that with any of their new ones though.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

The first time I smelled something fishy was when in one of his videos he praised "Danny Richie" of GR Research

I looked this guy up, and just remembered I'd seen a video of his. This guy really rubbed me the wrong way and gave off this attitude of superiority indeed.

 

[amirm]

I looked this guy up, and just remembered I'd seen a video of his. This guy really rubbed me the wrong way and gave off this attitude of superiority indeed.

Danny is a mirror of Paul. Looks good on camera. And mixes real engineering with myths with ease. The formula works on the Internet. It is the old joke of "how fast do you need to run from a bear? faster than the guy with you!" As long as they know a bit more than their audience, they get away with just about everything. Fortunately our education campaign is taking hold and folks are starting to know more than these people.

 

[Ricardus]

The formula works on the Internet. It is the old joke of "how fast do you need to run from a bear? faster than the guy with you!" As long as they know a bit more than their audience, they get away with just about everything.

It's true with recording knowledge as well. Everyone with a computer and an audio interface thinks they can make records like very experienced engineers, and then start a youtube channel to give advice.

 

[pinpoint_oxford]

It's true with recording knowledge as well. Everyone with a computer and an audio interface thinks they can make records like very experienced engineers, and then start a youtube channel to give advice.

That might be even worse since anyone can buy some software and a cheap audio interface and claim they know what they're doing. At least PS Audio is a company that sells products that are functional and employs engineers (even is Paul isn't one himself).

 

[CinDyment]

That might be even worse since anyone can buy some software and a cheap audio interface and claim they know what they're doing. At least PS Audio is a company that sells products that are functional and employs engineers (even is Paul isn't one himself).

As evidenced by this industry, anyone can put almost anything in a box and claim it is functional and the best thing ever and sell it ...

 

[Ricardus]

PS Audio is a company that sells products

Can't argue with that.

 

[antcollinet]

Cut Paul some slack. He is selling AC regulators. Does it regulate? Yes.
I like him, he is a very nice guy and he helps muggles understand basics.

What Stereophile wrote about Paul's devices:
"with the P12 there was a major step forward in overall realism. With no change in volume setting, the sound was more dynamic."
Of course, if you have something worth $10k your subconsciousness tells you that is a good product worth the money.

He is also selling some amplifiers and loudspeakers. To prevent being accused of mobbing test one of his good product (he must have a good product for God's sake .

Amir, you said once that measurement told you that some KEF speakers were good but actually they sound not good. Maybe there is something to it? Maybe there is a factor you cannot measure with your fancy equipment..

You also said that in the video, that this Smith guy uses a few regulators in series which apparently is a good approach.
Why not put another one before them?

See this shiny golden darTZeel NHB-458 power amp., it's got 0.42% THD+N and costs $150k.
It's expensive. The only way to avoid your cruel tests is to get more expensive than you can afford.
If Paul's P12 costs $50k he'd be safe.

He is selling improved audio via the mechanism of regulated power. He doesn't deliver what he sells.

 

[Joppe Peelen]

Don't know, but there is something strange here. Bob is not comfortable. Or he is afraid of cameras or he's afraid of something else, but he's definitely afraid of something. Maybe the presence of the CEO makes this video a bit uncomfortable?

Furthermore, do you think it's a way to deal with the chief engineer? In such a company, the chief engineer is by far much more important than the CEO, or at least it should be, and generally is someone who has offers from other companies and retaining him it's not an easy task, etc etc This video depicts a quite different situation IMHO.

Have you noticed how Bob looks at the infinitum for one second when Paul says he is the designer of the device? Why on earth do you want this man to go through this? If I were him I would be looking for another job just after this.

I've said that before, but this video just goes to show the same. If Paul trusted their team, he wouldn't appear on this video, at all. He's acting like the founder and owner of a familiar company that makes cheese, were he learned that from his grandpa and is passing the knowledge down to next generations. This is not a serious behavior of a tech company's CEO.

In some way all this looks like me with my 20 € multimeter testing if my son's Lego train is broken or just the batteries are misplaced.

well clearly he does not like to be in front of the camera, and probably it was not his idea either.. i would be a bad employee, and chose the do it yourself approach. i dont do everything just because i work there. being in front of a camera while having to controll hand shakiness is not fun. (thats what i see at least, he is not having fun.) i am not hired for that. i feel for him

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Why not just let it go?

Why not show a blind listening test so people know this is not a waste of money? PSAudio can end this in a heartbeat with one short video. Seriously you act like this huge company is going to care what a few people on the internet say. Very little of the audio community knows about Amir's humble site here.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

well clearly he does not like to be in front of the camera, and probably it was not his idea either.. i would be a bad employee, and chose the do it yourself approach. i dont do everything just because i work there. being in front of a camera while having to controll hand shakiness is not fun. (thats what i see at least, he is not having fun.) i am not hired for that. i feel for him

Me too. Paul looked like he was forcing the guy to do something he didn't feel comfortable with.

 

[don'ttrustauthority]

Paul is the Jordan Belfort of audio. Don't spare him a moment more of your time, there are other companies which gladly improve their products based on community feedback, rather than fighting it.

Schiit Audio developed several new amplifiers after realizing how much demand there was for headphone amplifiers that measure as the state of the art (and dramatically improved their Modi dac), and I think thanks to Amir they are like twenty more times the sales they had before Amir. PSAudio should take a similar tact and stop fighting the trends, go with the measurements.

 

[iulianm]

Amir's measurement definitely helped me choose the Modi 3+ and not spend more for the multibit.
I think measurements are a key component in removing subjective views.

As there goes the saying: "you can't improve what you can't measure".