@pinpoint_oxford Your space heater experiment is consistent with the ps audio website specs saying that it can put out a max of 1250 W.
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PS Audio PowerPlant 12 Review (AC Regenerator)
- Thread starter amirm
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GeekyBastard
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@SIY For what it's worth (note: I'm just the messenger here and I'm not defending this), in case you can't find it by google, I include here for your convenience the source of the quote where he says the voltage dips when there is a high demand for transient power by the amplifier and the P12 prevents the dip by delivering the power:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/ps-audio-directstream-power-plant-12
Whether it's snake oil or fact, you can test it:
"I asked Paul McGowan, CEO of PS Audio, to comment on the apparent similarity of the measurements. He said that the big differences were not in distortion as such, but in how the distortion would vary depending on incoming level and use. The P12 and its siblings are more resistant to influence by these factors. Perhaps even more important is the lowering of output impedance, from about 0.05 ohm in the previous generation of Power Plants to 0.008 ohm in the current models. McGowan acknowledged that the difference "might not seem like a lot, but it is a big deal," the lower output impedance resulting in greater energy storage, peak current demand, and tighter energy regulation. "When an amplifier demands a quick burst of transient power, the straight wall socket can't deliver it without dipping in voltage," he explained. "And if a passive conditioner is attached, that gets even worse. But when the regenerator is there, it delivers the energy without batting an eye—and that's where the magic happens."
@SIY And although this older article on AC regenerators discusses older generations of the products, feel free to critique the engineering for the benefit of all the members on ASR (if you wish to do so of course).
www.stereophile.com
Paul McGowan: High-End Survivor
"I don't believe it!" I had just unplugged my preamplifier from the PS Audio Power Plant P300 and powered it from the wall socket, and was reacting to the resultant "grayness" that had been reimposed on my music.
www.stereophile.com
Limited how, by what and how much? The power pole mains AC supply transformer has a significant apparent power output (VA) before loading down. There is a fusible link at the pole(?) at the unit and maybe at each DC power rail. Amps peak limitation is determined by what stage in the circuit?
Does it? Is the additional linear AC to DC to AC stage just more distortion and current limiting? How sensitive is this stuff to a regen addition? How much is goobly gook?
You mean the ones they can't produce?
Sigh* Any chance you can bullet that stuff for me? Put it into briefs for the present? What's the money shot, the destination and the result?
@SIY @Doodski
A few more things for you both to think about (see older link above):
"if you were to look at a power amplifier's [voltage rails], you would see that these harmonics are pretty much gone. They're gone because the capacitors in the power supply have shunted them off to ground. Most people would stop at that point and say, "That's fine, they're gone." Unfortunately, in the way that power amps are designed—and preamps and DACs, for that matter—the point where the noise is shunted off, our power-supply ground, is directly wired to the signal ground.
McGowan: Exactly. It doesn't. It's like anything else that's connected through a resistance, in that some voltage is generated [across that resistance]. If that's the point where you're shunting off these harmonics and the other things you don't want, then they will actually reappear on that ground point. And if those harmonics are going up and down in time with the music, which will happen as the power amp draws current from the wall to the music, then you get a funny kind of modulation that contributes to the way things sound, a tinny quality or a glassy glare.
This is only a guess. But now that we're a bit more sensitive to this type of audible distortion, I can sit down to a system and pretty much hear the glare, because whether it's on a voice or on an instrument, that glare tends to ride with the music. When we run that same system through a perfect voltage source, a regulated AC source, that glare is gone.
Atkinson: So when you regenerate the AC supply with a Power Plant, the components you plug into it are now being fed from a perfect voltage source. Whatever their current demands are, they're still being fed with a constant AC voltage.
McGowan: That's correct. The Power Plant is essentially a power amplifier being fed by a DSP-based sinewave generator. And if the device that's being driven by the Power Plant demands current in an irregular fashion, what will happen is that, because the Power Plant is an amplifier with negative feedback, it is able to compensate for that asymmetrical or nonsinusoidal current demand. The Power Plant's power supply is able to pump more current to meet those demands. Whereas, if you plug the device directly into the wall socket, depending on the resistance inside of the line, you get a modulation effect due to the current demands.
Atkinson: And that modulation ends up riding on the signal ground in your amplifier or preamp.
McGowan: We can see that on a 'scope. If you tie a fairly high-value resistor on one side to the device's signal ground and the other side to a [true] earth ground, you can actually see the modulation."
A few more things for you both to think about (see older link above):
"if you were to look at a power amplifier's [voltage rails], you would see that these harmonics are pretty much gone. They're gone because the capacitors in the power supply have shunted them off to ground. Most people would stop at that point and say, "That's fine, they're gone." Unfortunately, in the way that power amps are designed—and preamps and DACs, for that matter—the point where the noise is shunted off, our power-supply ground, is directly wired to the signal ground.
McGowan: Exactly. It doesn't. It's like anything else that's connected through a resistance, in that some voltage is generated [across that resistance]. If that's the point where you're shunting off these harmonics and the other things you don't want, then they will actually reappear on that ground point. And if those harmonics are going up and down in time with the music, which will happen as the power amp draws current from the wall to the music, then you get a funny kind of modulation that contributes to the way things sound, a tinny quality or a glassy glare.
This is only a guess. But now that we're a bit more sensitive to this type of audible distortion, I can sit down to a system and pretty much hear the glare, because whether it's on a voice or on an instrument, that glare tends to ride with the music. When we run that same system through a perfect voltage source, a regulated AC source, that glare is gone.
Atkinson: So when you regenerate the AC supply with a Power Plant, the components you plug into it are now being fed from a perfect voltage source. Whatever their current demands are, they're still being fed with a constant AC voltage.
McGowan: That's correct. The Power Plant is essentially a power amplifier being fed by a DSP-based sinewave generator. And if the device that's being driven by the Power Plant demands current in an irregular fashion, what will happen is that, because the Power Plant is an amplifier with negative feedback, it is able to compensate for that asymmetrical or nonsinusoidal current demand. The Power Plant's power supply is able to pump more current to meet those demands. Whereas, if you plug the device directly into the wall socket, depending on the resistance inside of the line, you get a modulation effect due to the current demands.
Atkinson: And that modulation ends up riding on the signal ground in your amplifier or preamp.
McGowan: We can see that on a 'scope. If you tie a fairly high-value resistor on one side to the device's signal ground and the other side to a [true] earth ground, you can actually see the modulation."
I'm sure glad we have the Internet to learn folk what years of college and decades of real-world engineering practice have failed to achieve... And to demonstrate how to misapply basic engineering principles for the benefit of marketing.
This is it. Where is the bottleneck?
So one will spend north of $5000 for a product that could have been avoided simply by purchasing a decently (and probably less expensive) engineered amplifier?
I reckon he can’t.
@Sir Sanders Zingmore Those are not my words. They were within quotes.
@Rottmannash probably yes, but I don't know if the "decently engineered amp" will be less than $5000.
my very well engineered VTV Purifi is quite capable and doesn't require a power conditioner to perform...and cost less than $1000.
@Doodski I dunno
@Rottmannash Excellent !!!
@Rottmannash But Amir said: "I can't recommend the VTV Purifi amplifiers based on these two versions I have tested."
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