WiiM Amp Streaming Amplifier Review

[GGroch]

Setting up a blind test comparison is a huge faff.

It is, which is exactly why audio snake oil is so successful.

....... I know what I've heard and what the differences are. It's not rocket science for me.....

Not rocket science for anyone, established psychoacoustic science for us all.

There is no mystery. I came to ASR with a solid knowledge of consumer electronics but I did not understand how hearing/perception/cognition works.

Human hearing is not particularly acute compared to modern microphones, but the ear/brain combination is an extremely powerful prediction engine.

There is great stuff here on that topic which I hope you will find interesting and take the time to peruse. It explains not only why snake oil is successful, but also why smart honest humans make all sorts of other judgements that are not tethered in fact.

 

[Marss72]

It is, which is exactly why audio snake oil is so successful.

Not rocket science for anyone, established psychoacoustic science for us all.

There is no mystery. I came to ASR with a solid knowledge of consumer electronics but I did not understand how hearing/perception/cognition works.

Human hearing is not particularly acute compared to modern microphones, but the ear/brain combination is an extremely powerful prediction engine.

There is great stuff here on that topic which I hope you will find interesting and take the time to peruse. It explains not only why snake oil is successful, but also why smart honest humans make all sorts of other judgements that are not tethered in fact.

What can i say?

 

[antcollinet]

It's just what I've observed.

The problem is, you've observed it with an observation method that is known to be flawed, easily invalidated by the way your auditory system together with your human brain works.

Your observation is only useful for you, and is (or should be) of no interest to anyone else. That is why you are getting the negative pushback. We've heard it over and over again - it is tiresome.

 

[sucramhabib]

Sounds like Wiim is the bottleneck in the chain? If that's the case, is it due to the amplification section or the internal DAC/sound processing or both? Do you guys think i will experience the same with the Wiim Ultra/will i be dissapointed in the sound?

It's not the DAC, it's the amplification. In both cases (SMSL AO300 and Wiim Amp) I was using a standalone iFi Zen DAC and connected to the amp section via RCA. The amplifier is lean.

I also tried the Wiim Mini + optical out to iFI Zen DAC + Fosi V3. Again, the only difference was amplification and the sound was far better (fuller, more powerful, smoother top end).

That said, the Wiim amp is not bad. It's value is in being an all in one streamer + DAC w/EQ & bass mgmt. No one should buy because it sounds great; it doesn't. It sound "OK"

When the Ultra release I'll likely give it a shot.

 

[sucramhabib]

The problem is, you've observed it with an observation method that is known to be flawed, easily invalidated by the way your auditory system together with your human brain works.

Your observation is only useful for you, and is (or should be) of no interest to anyone else. That is why you are getting the negative pushback. We've heard it over and over again - it is tiresome.

I disagree. His observation is also my observation. The amp is lean.

I think the biggest difference is our expectation. The Wiim Amp is NOT a giant killer and I never expected it to be so I was not disappointed. It's a $300 all in one. As said before, I also have the Cyrus One Cast (msrp $2000 at time of purchase); when I bought the Wiim Amp I expected it to be a good desktop amp that would allow me to use my sub bass managed and apply EQ to my speakers. That's what it does and I'm satisfied.

Marss72 simply had too high an expectation for a $300 all in one amp. That doesn't make his observation wrong.

 

[sucramhabib]

Do not believe everything you read on the Internet.

Especially unsubstantiated statements on sound quality from a sighted, uncontrolled sound comparison.

@sucramhabib could've set the Cyrus 1dB louder by accident and that would already explain their preference towards it, without there being any difference in sound quality.

Proper, controlled A/B tests that remove bias from the equation and provide actual, meaningful data on sound quality are tedious to set up, almost no one bothers.

If statements on sound quality differences between two Amps/DACs/Cables/etc aren't accompanied by a detailed description of the test setup, number of trials, confidence intervals, then they're next to useless.

If we shouldn't believe what's read on the internet, no one should believe you either...

Like i said, I have the amp and use it almost daily. I like it. doesn't change the fact that it's sound it lean.

I don't need a scientific study or scale know if I'm fat or skinny, I can observe with my eyes. Look at your graphs, pie charts and scatter plots all day. Let them tell you what sounds better to you. I'll listen and let my ears tell me what sounds better to me.

 

[Julf]

I disagree. His observation is also my observation.

"Because his opinion agrees with my own, he must be right"

 

[Julf]

If we shouldn't believe what's read on the internet, no one should believe you either...

What you should believe is verified facts and physics.

I don't need a scientific study or scale know if I'm fat or skinny, I can observe with my eyes.

Great example - "fat" and "skinny" are all in the eye of the beholder. Totally subjective.

Look at your graphs, pie charts and scatter plots all day. Let them tell you what sounds better to you. I'll listen and let my ears tell me what sounds better to me.

No problem with that, as long as you don't assume that what sounds better to you necessarily has anything to do with what sounds good to someone else, or the ideal of HiFi (High Fidelity) - accurate reproduction of the original signal.

 

[antcollinet]

I disagree. His observation is also my observation. The amp is lean.

If your observation is also based on uncontrolled, and sighted listening, it is equally flawed. Our auditory system is just not suitable for those sorts of observations.

 

[sucramhabib]

What you should believe is verified facts and physics

I agree

Great example - "fat" and "skinny" are all in the eye of the beholder. Totally subjective

Exactly, that’s the point. So is lean. It’s a matter of opinion, not fact

No problem with that, as long as you don't assume that what sounds better to you necessarily has anything to do with what sounds good to someone else, or the ideal of HiFi (High Fidelity) - accurate reproduction of the original signal

I never said or insinuated such. My opinion is mine and you or anyone can disagree. Doesn’t make one right or wrong unless there’s objective measure. There is no objective standard for any of my comments.

 

[sucramhabib]

If your observation is also based on uncontrolled, and sighted listening, it is equally flawed. Our auditory system is just not suitable for those sorts of observations.

Then rely on measurements to tell you what sounds good to you. I’m fine with that. I’ll rely on my ears.

 

[Descartes]

Then rely on measurements to tell you what sounds good to you. I’m fine with that. I’ll rely on my ears.

Both measurements and listening personally is how I choose my speakers.

For electronics measurements are basically all I need!

 

[sucramhabib]

"Because his opinion agrees with my own, he must be right"

Making assumptions I see… . I never said I was right, I said I disagree. Different statements with different meanings

 

[antcollinet]

It’s a matter of opinion, not fact

So your opinion "no he is right" because you also think "lean" - is therefore not a fact?

 

[sucramhabib]

Both measurements and listening personally is how I choose my speakers.

For electronics measurements are basically all I need!

I’m not against measurements. They are useful, as is listening. However, if I heard something that sounded good and found out it measured poorly I wouldn’t care. It’s about sonic enjoyment for me,

 

[sucramhabib]

So your opinion "no he is right" because you also think "lean" - is therefore not a fact?

You’re putting things in quotations as if I actually said them. I said “lean” and “I disagree” not “no he is right.”

Please do me a favor and read what I wrote in 864, 865 and 866

I expressed an opinion and did not attempt to pass it as scientific fact. The closest you’ll get is when I said, AND I QUOTE “Like i said, I have the amp and use it almost daily. I like it. doesn't change the fact that it's sound is lean”

 

[Petevid]

I’m not against measurements. They are useful, as is listening. However, if I heard something that sounded good and found out it measured poorly I wouldn’t care. It’s about sonic enjoyment for me,

Preferring a good sounding playback to an accurate one would suggest you’re not into hi fidelity. An accurate sounding system meets a single set of criteria whereas good sounding one meets no criteria only the preferences of each individual listener.

 

[antcollinet]

You’re putting things in quotations as if I actually said them. I said “lean” and “I disagree” not “no he is right.”

Please do me a favor and read what I wrote in 864, 865 and 866

I expressed an opinion and did not attempt to pass it as scientific fact. The closest you’ll get is when I said, AND I QUOTE “Like i said, I have the amp and use it almost daily. I like it. doesn't change the fact that it's sound is lean”

Sorry - you're correct. I "quoted" from memory.

 

[Marss72]

Then rely on measurements to tell you what sounds good to you. I’m fine with that. I’ll rely on my ears.

I totally agree. Measurements and graphs etc. don't tell me how an amplifier sounds, my ears do.

 

[antcollinet]

I totally agree. Measurements and graphs etc. don't tell me how an amplifier sounds, my ears do.

If you restate that as "my ears and brain" then yes, of course. But that perception is unique to you. It won't necessarily apply to anyone elsoe.

Further your ears (and brain) can quite easily tell you one amp sounds different to another amp - even when the sound waves reaching your ears are actually identical.

This is where measurements become useful. They tell us how close and amp (or dac or any other gear) gets to the proverbial "straight wire with gain" - and hence how well they are performing in terms of simply amplifying the input - without changing it. Our ears/brain can't tell us anything about that.