Why do passive speakers still exist?

[pablolie]

In most active speakers the firmware can be updated quite easily by the end user. So a software API-change does not necessarily render the speakers obsolete.

You are wrong. Firmware can only be updated if the vendor keeps supporting and providing firmware updates. Otherwise you have nothing to update with.

And they never, ever do that forever. Look at any smartphone ever released. They are not supported with updates after 3 to 5 years, and that is optimistic even. My 2019 Samsung S10+ stopped receiving important security updates in late 2022, and OS updates way before that. It forced me to "upgrade" to an S23 Ultra. Which will go through the exact same lifecycle again. Just an example for a reality check there. Why would you think your super-integrated active loudspeaker will fare much better? I personally don't want that forced upon forklift upgrade every 5 years in my audio chain, thanks very much.

Software updates could be possibly kept alive if the vendor lets it go and lets an open software community support the stuff (it happens, a laudable example is the Squeezebox ecosystem).

 

[dlaloum]

Probably just marketplace momentum as much as anything. And there are some minuses to actives with DSP that Doodski mentioned in reverse.

An active with amps and built in DSP can make for a great speaker. OTOH, if any part of that goes bad, your whole speaker is bad. Could be a DSP chip gets zapped by voltage spikes, could be an amp let go, or anything. Any one part ruins the whole and people don't like that.

Oh, and XLR's just never took over. I wish they finally would for actives and passives. I don't think it will ever happen however.

Neutrik speaker connectors.... replace all those bananas and bare cable posts.... best thing since sliced bread for speakers... But other than the pro / PA world, it is too late for change in this space.

And yes, XLR's for active speakers - running line level over multiple meters of cable length is not a great idea.

The RCA's are fine for local 50cm to 2m (3m at a pinch) connections, but beyond that, we need something more reliable. (and less prone to interference.

However, market inertia (and cost differential) will mitigate against it, plus the fact that ultimately, the connection to an active speaker won't be analogue at all, but some form of digital streaming... Dante or similar over either WiFi or Wired IP perhaps with POE - either way a single cable to the speaker.... with WiFi a power cable, with Wired a CAT6 cable carrying both signal and power... keeping in mind that POE is currently limited to 30W.

I think that active speakers with RCA connections are a market niche that will almost disappear within 10 years.

Look at all the "smart speakers" around, using bluetooth and WiFi ... they are the future.... right now most of them are distinctly non High-Fidelity - but that is changing.

I think passive speakers will continue, for the same reason that "seperates" continue, but all the other configurations, all the active speaker types, will be going through a huge amount of change over the next decade....
The "speaker" part of it won't change all that much, barring some sort of dramatic technological development in transducers.... but the "Active" part of the equation... and how it connects to everything else - the mainstream speaker of 2035 will be very different from the mainstream speaker of 2005 - and a 2035 speaker may not be able to connect to a 2005 source/pre without some sort of converters.

 

[Angsty]

I can't speak for the person you replied to, but since I share that view: mainly, wired-in obsolescence to support music streaming services a la Spotify etc. Their APIs will change over the years, your equipment will prolly support them for 5-8 years, tops. And sure, then you can get a new additional box to support those changes and just use the RCA/XLR connection to your now feature-less speakers... which begs the question... why did you pay for those features to begin with? Wouldn't that product development $ be better spent on better components and performance for the active speaker -without additional functionality- you end up with inevitably?

This is in no way a new dynamic in tech devices.

Agree.

 

[JiiPee]

Fir,wareho


You are wrong. Firmware can only be updated if the vendor keeps supporting and providing firmware updates. Otherwise you have nothing to update with.

And they never, ever do that forever. Look at any smartphone ever released. They are not supported with updates after4 to 6 years, and that is optimistic even. My 2019 Samsung S10+ stopped receiving important security updates in late 2022, and OS updates way before that. Just an example for a reality check there. Why would you think your super-integrated active loudspeaker will fare much better?

Software updates could be possibly kept alive if the vendor lets it go and lets an open software community support the stuff (it happens, a laudable example is the Squeezebox ecosystem).

I've been in IT industry for 40 years. Believe me, I know what firmware is and how it is updated. Yes, there are new features that may not be backward compatible, or not financially feasible to make backward compatible in some cases, but Your estimate for maximum support time is very pessimistic generally speaking.

 

[dlaloum]

How many kef blade or revel salon customers really want to 'match components' and want to use tube amps and stuff like that?
Are they still the majority or do most customers just get any amp or AVR for speakers in this price range?

Brands like B&O are making actives for a while now and they are quite popular; Speakers like Kef LS60 or Dynaudio Focus are also getting a lot of attention.
I would also prefer every speaker to be active but every aspect of an active has to be at least as good as the passive version imho

B&O have been making actives for around 30 years now... the active Penta was released in the late 80's...

 

[Angsty]

It’s interesting that external crossovers for speakers did not become “a thing” like external DACs have become.

 

[pablolie]

Why should the later box not have a digital connection to the speakers?

Oh yes, integrated top class DAC in the active speakers gets a big yes from me. Integration with online services gets a big no.

 

[Angsty]

I've been in IT industry for 40 years. Believe me, I know what firmware is and how it is updated. Yes, there are new features that may not be backward compatible, or not financially feasible to make backward compatible in some cases, but Your estimate for maximum support time is very pessimistic generally speaking.

Supporting existing speakers makes very little revenue compared to selling new, improved ones. The product lifespan is not based on the physical durability of the units; it’s based on market economics.

Now if active speakers where sold with subscriptions to the speaker software…

 

[dlaloum]

It’s interesting that external crossovers for speakers did not become “a thing” like external DACs have become.

Depends on the market segment.

In the pro / pa world power amps with built in crossovers are very common

Look at the Crown XLS series of amps.... and they have their competitors from all the other pro/pa brands.... many of which also compete in the HiFi world, albeit often under differing brand names. (eg: Crown = Lexicon = Harman = JBL etc...)

External crossovers have not become a "thing" is that specific market segment....
I have run my speakers using an external crossover, but found the gains to be negligible or non-existent - obviously results will vary depending on the speaker, the crossover and the amps... but in my case, I rolled it back to the relative simplicity of no external crossover.

 

[JiiPee]

You are wrong. Firmware can only be updated if the vendor keeps supporting and providing firmware updates. Otherwise you have nothing to update with.

And they never, ever do that forever. Look at any smartphone ever released. They are not supported with updates after 3 to 5 years, and that is optimistic even. My 2019 Samsung S10+ stopped receiving important security updates in late 2022, and OS updates way before that. It forced me to "upgrade" to an S23 Ultra. Which will go through the exact same lifecycle again. Just an example for a reality check there. Why would you think your super-integrated active loudspeaker will fare much better? I personally don't want that forced upon forklift upgrade every 5 years in my audio chain, thanks very much.

Software updates could be possibly kept alive if the vendor lets it go and lets an open software community support the stuff (it happens, a laudable example is the Squeezebox ecosystem).

My Linn DS-I streamer is over 10 years old and perfectly usable today. Support from Linn has still not stopped.

 

[pablolie]

I've been in IT industry for 40 years. Believe me, I know what firmware is and how it is updated. Yes, there are new features that may not be backward compatible, or not financially feasible to make backward compatible in some cases, but Your estimate for maximum support time is very pessimistic generally speaking.

Give us one single example in consumer electronics. The support standards for $1k smartphones are very clear and defined, and NEVER go beyond 4-5 years.

I work in enterprise IT technology. Indeed we are contractually obligated to provide long term support. How long entirely depends on the customer base's needs and the product. When people pay $500k for a slot-card in a 16 card system they may just want to use it for a bit. Government agencies have different standards, and they pay for it.

Consumer electronics... naw. Tell me of a single device that has been supported by the vendor with updates for over 5 years. I have a 10 year old computer I keep using, but it is entirely self supported and I had to load Ubuntu Linux into it. Open source. Firmware? Not a single update since 2018 or so.

 

[dlaloum]

Example of what happens to smart/active speakers long term:

https://edition.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/electronics/sonos-legacy-speakers-guide#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20a%20long,and%20end%20support%20for%20them.

 

[JiiPee]

Supporting existing speakers makes very little revenue compared to selling new, improved ones. The product lifespan is not based on the physical durability of the units; it’s based on market economics.

Now if active speakers where sold with subscriptions to the speaker software…

LIke You said, this is market economy driven. Do You think it would be wise for a manufacture to let their speakers become obsolete in 3 year from purchase. Don't You think it would kill the brand in customers minds.

Speakers are not smartphones. Most customers are not eager to change them every couple of years. Speaker manufacturers understand this and realize that in order to stay in business they need to support their products longer.

 

[pablolie]

Example of what happens to smart/active speakers long term:

https://edition.cnn.com/cnn-underscored/electronics/sonos-legacy-speakers-guide#:~:text=If%20you%27re%20a%20long,and%20end%20support%20for%20them.

Great example.

 

[JiiPee]

Give us one single example in consumer electronics. The support standards for $1k smartphones are very clear and defined, and NEVER go beyond 4-5 years.

I work in enterprise IT technology. Indeed we are contractually obligated to provide long term support. How long entirely depends on the customer base's needs and the product. When people pay $500k for a slot-card in a 16 card system they may just want to use it for a bit. Government agencies have different standards, and they pay for it.

Consumer electronics... naw. Tell me of a single device that has been supported by the vendor with updates for over 5 years. I have a 10 year old computer I keep using, but it is entirely self supported and I had to load Ubuntu Linux into it. Open source. Firmware? Not a single update since 2018 or so.

My Linn DS-I is over 10 years old and still supported by Linn. It is still perfectly usable.

Smartphones are different animals, because most users are replacing them in every few years anyway. Manufacturers plan their support period accordingly.

 

[dfuller]

Hold on a second, don't confuse "smart speaker" for "active".

 

[pablolie]

My Linn DS-I is over 10 years old and still supported by Linn. It is still perfectly usable.

Smartphones are different animals, because most users are replacing them in every few years anyway. Manufacturers plan their support period accordingly.

Does your Linn need updates to keep up with streaming services' APIs? Does it support all of them?

 

[Newman]

Here we go again. The old 'which tech lasts longer' debate. I am reminded of the argument that vinyl beats digital because after the apocalypse, cave-dwelling mutants could drag their fingernails along the groove of a record that rolled out of the smoking ruin of a city, and still hear music. The music isn't lost! So important!

 

[pablolie]

Here we go again. The old 'which tech lasts longer' debate. I am reminded of the argument that vinyl beats digital because after the apocalypse, cave-dwelling mutants could drag their fingernails along the groove of a record that rolled out of the smoking ruin of a city, and still hear music. The music isn't lost! So important!

That is not the same. We are talking about product support/sw updates timeline, not about music medium longevity.

 

[Newman]

I know it's not the same. But it just reminds me. An over-emphasis on the long haul.

One needs a certain phlegmatism when engaging in consumerism.